G-Minor 112

Denniz

Where's my breakfast?
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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

[size=+1](*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
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Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Cultural (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Noble
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Small
  • Map Type: Any
  • Speed: Normal
  • Civ: Any
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: 1.74.004, 2.13.004 or 3.19.003
  • Date: 10th to 25th January 2011
Must not play as Inca.

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
After being humbled on the Deity Culture GMajor and being unable to finish, I really wanted to try out this "easier" version.

As usual lately when I can choose my map, I went with the always exciting Great Plains. Ramses!, can you say Wonderspam?




Spoiler :


That's 22 hammers and +9 food surplus at 7 Pop.
38 hammers and +1 food surplus at 11 Pop. :lol:

11 is about all I managed. Wheat, corn, and cow were my only health resources at the end. That is the bad thing about great plains, it is mostly plains.

I built 4 cities, captured 2 more (warrior rush), and went 5 religions on this attempt. Capital spammed wonders, 2nd city cottaged up and made a few wonders, 3rd city went
a few wonders and was my main GP farm. All 3 of them got cathedrals. I used all 6 of my cities as great artist farms as best I could, but the wonder spam gave me even odds at best on the 1st and 2nd cities. I just grinded out Great People and let the odds decide my finish date.

This resulted in:
1st GP - Scientist, bulbed philo
2nd GP - Great Prophet, bulbed christianity
3rd GP - Great Merchat, trade mission to Mansa 1100 gold
4th GP - Great Artist
5th GP - Great Engineer, rushed Taj Mahal after I finished Mausoleum
6th GP - Great Propeht, built Buddist Shrine
7th Gp - Great Artist
8th Gp - Great Scientist, Academy
9th Gp - Great Artist
10th Gp - Great Artist
11th Gp - Great Prophet, 2nd Golden Age
12th Gp - Great Artist
13th Gp - Great Artist
14th Gp - Great Artist
15th GP - Great Artist
16th GP - Great Artist
17th GP - Great Spy, last turn of game, unused.
So 53% great artists.

Also got the free Great artist from music and Great Merchant from economics.

I hit the liberalism date at 225AD. Won the game in 1140AD.
Being able to oracle bureaucracy and get an early 250% bonus to marble and stone
wonders in a 30+ hammer city is outrageous.

Here is the capital at the end, 13 Great Wonders:

Spoiler :


Th only thing I felt I misjudged was moving all sliders to zero during the first golden age in 250AD. I figured I should wait for more cathedrals to be built before I went 100% culture, as I had a fairly large -gpt deficit. Instead, I should have gone 100% culture right away. When I hit 900 gold 7 turns later,my extra cities ran out of things to build and could build wealth directly, giving me -1 gpt at 100% culture.

I spent the rest of the game at 1000+ gold. Props to Ghandi for making me wardec 3 times, he defended his marble well.
 
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Impressive result, Kaitzilla

I'll try to participate in this Gauntlet, your result deserves a number of submissions to compare it to and a number of losers to magnify your win.


Your game is very interesting for me, because your style of play is so different from mine (I tend to ignore WW, except a few chosen ones).

I'd be very happy to know what turn you stopped researching. Was it easy to research given the "bad capital" (in terms of commerce) you have there? What was your research path?
 
I effectively stopped researching when I got liberalism and nationalism in 225AD.
Mercantilism was a nice little boost that I got later thanks to banking, but it wasn't
essential.

Actually, researching with the commerce poor capital wasn't all that hard on noble. I went animal husbandry-> writing-> alphabet at the start and got all the starting techs through trades. Then I got a goody-hut Aesthetics and traded Mansa for metal casting very early. I bulbed both theology and philosophy. I hit a bit of a wall, but I completed the Pyramids around 1100BC and switched to a specialist economy.

I resigned myself to losing the first few great people to bulbing and such, as it was the only way for me to tech. Instead, I focused on a few key goals to get as much
raw culture out of buildings as possible.


Important goal: Build the main religion's temple and monastary before 1000BC.

Getting these two done early is important, because their culture value doubles after 1000 years. Also, 1AD is around the time the Sistene Chapel gets built, adding
+5 culture to buildings and +2 specialists. Thanks to sistene's and the doubling effect, the temple and monastary were producing +12 and +14 culture respectively from 1AD onward. The Aposolistic Palace added +2 hammers to each, in addition to the cathedrals and the shrine. Throw in +2 beakers on each from the University of Sankore, and you got two powerhouse buildings.


This map had a lot of great synergies for Ramses that I don't recall seeing on other maps. Max city size was around 12. Building 6 cities, the pyramids was actually a really strong play. Spamming so many temples meant I didn't need HR at all this game.
The great plains are loaded with cows, providing enough hammers to make 5 religions worthwhile. Goody huts were plentiful, as there are many dead ends on the map where huts can lie idle for over a thousand years. For some reason, extra gold seems to last longer on a map with few cities on normal speed. The trade mission to Mansa (1100 gold) allowed me to research Paper->Education->Calendar->Liberalism at 100%, and then switch to 100% culture if I had wished.

From 1000BC on I actually throttled my capital's production to run 3 artists (-12 hammers). It was making wonders too fast :lol: Having the 40-45% artist GPP mix was more valuable, and it allowed the capital not to run out of things to build, or hog all of the wonders. Was that the best play? I don't know honestly. But I did feel that I wouldn't have enough great artists to bomb the other two cities to 50k culture each. I spread the wonders and multipliers around to all three to an extent, and hoped the cottages, artist specialists, and % luck would average out over time and give me a good result.
 
Impressive result, Kaitzilla

Somehow I thought your game was far from reach. I've been overvaluing the help Deity AI can give you and infravaluing what WW can do for you. Now I think 1000AD is possible, even with a mostly peaceful strategy.

Thanks for the additional details. I think that GM mission helped you a lot.


1180AD victory with Gandhi in inland sea map.

7 cities, 4 religions, 21GP (2free).
2300cpt at 1000AD in the three cities together.
2 GS wanted, Academy and Philo. 1 GPro accepted, Divine Rights. 1 GPro GoldenAge. Free GM from Economy unused. 16 GA bombed 3-6-7.
Alphabet beeline, then CS sling, then Music, then Liberalism.

This was a bad game. Things that could be improved:
- Moved my settler to a PH. (1 lost turn)
- Marble, 2Gold, 4FP. (lacked food)
- I received from war only 2 Workers and 1 city.
- I received form huts no techs, only 50g.
- My 2 neighbours had early religions, a total of 0 missionaries came to my land.
- Never got any resource trade from AIs.
- Never prioritized temples and monasteries for Sistine's, since I was waiting for Ai's religion to spread and be my main one.
- After Agriculture, I started Poly and abandoned it when hinduism was founded somewhere else.
- 1280BC, just 3 cities and 4 Workers, quite bad expansion. My 7th city was founded 300BC.
- Only 4 religions, had to research Theo and part of DivRig.
- 60 sustainable bpt at 1AD (ugh)
- Finished research 500AD.
- Since my religions were late ones and my expansion slow, I was behind in cathedrals building, just 8 at 500AD.
- My 12th cathedral came 800AD.
- My last 2 GA saved 1 turn each, another one would have saved 3 turns more.
- Stayed in OR too long, for faster cathedrals, thus damaging my research (people at the mines, not as Pyramids powered artists).
- 7 turns at 100% gold after 500AD, many more before.
- The second 5-turn slavery period was ill chosen, delaying FS for 3 turns.

Cities:
- Capital, no cottages on the FP because of lack of food. A handful of cottages. A handful of non-artist WW. Hermitage.
- 2nd city, 2 food resources, lots of mines. Build a some 8 WW, 100% artist probability. In the end hired artists and popped 2 GA.
- GPFarm: cows and 7 FP, all farmed.



This was basically the first time I've played with a hammer city. The game played quite similar to yours.

Considering that the second city passed the GPFarm in base GPP in the end, it might have been better to put the NE in the 2nd city and put cottages and not farms on the GPFarm, thus helping my research.


Next try I'll be faster expanding, I'll have cottages in 1 more city, I'll get to Liberalism 1AD and I'll beat the 1000AD mark. Wish me luck!
 
here is my best try, with 1570 AD.
you 2 are just from another planet, I guess :lol:

please note that my attempt is still better than the previous #1 ;)

Do you want to come to our planet?

Just give us some key details of your game and we will try to transform you into someone of our kind.
 
Do you want to come to our planet?

Just give us some key details of your game and we will try to transform you into someone of our kind.

some key issues :
- no marble, no stone for most of the game (and mostly unremarkable capital)
- liberalism around 1000 AD

just for the notice I'm third with 1570AD.
 
Just give us some key details of your game and we will try to transform you into someone of our kind.

"You will be assimilated?"

Is this an offer to join your (Borg) Collective?

OK, all ports are open.

Communication or weapon ports?

Communication.

Are we going to learn about the care and growing of cottages or the building of fine cultural wonders and buildings? I hope the answer is both, sensei.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
"You will be assimilated?"

Is this an offer to join your (Borg) Collective?

OK, all ports are open.

Communication or weapon ports?

Communication.

Are we going to learn about the care and growing of cottages or the building of fine cultural wonders and buildings? I hope the answer is both, sensei.

Sun Tzu Wu


No details, no lesson. :p




Seriously: I love the process of someone giving details about his game, my commenting on one of the points "I wouldn't have done that because...", the answer "well, yes , but you have to take into account..."
The result of the process is someone learns something. Usually more than one person learns new things.


The most important lessons I've given and received for cultural games are about speed of expansion, sending a worker with your settler, and the likes. By the way, they happen not to be only useful for cultural games.
 
I wish I had time to try this. I typically follow the research to Liberalism/Nationalism and 3 cottaged Legendary cities approach. I also wish someone with Sid's Sushi expertise would play so that we could better compare the three main strategies (e.g. culture from slider/cottages/GAs vs. culture from buildings vs. culture from Sid's).

Should we try for a Cultural Gauntlet in the upcoming BOTM? I guess it's too late since it has already started...
 
so I tried it again
this time, it's 1400 AD thanks to much better warfare.
I think I overdid the war thing, though, killing a good trading partner for 1 more religion...
Was it really worth it? I don't think so, since it did cost me a lot of maintenance, lost me foreign trade routes and a a few tech trades. well It made it easier to grab marble, I already had stone and copper, so not all was lost and I got 2 great artists out of toumbouctou.
 
I tried again. It was not the settler in a PH with corn+marble+3gems start I was hoping for, so I didn't get a sub 1000AD result, but was enough to take the first position if Kaitzilla hasn't improved his date.

I now think that at this level war is the only way. I used to want to be neighbour of Asoka and Musa, but now I prefer Lincoln by my side to be killed. I played with minimum opponents, but I recommend a well populated map to be sure you have a close neighbour to warrior rush.


Ok, this is the story of the game. I choose Gandhi against Elizabeth, Musa, Asoka and Lincoln in an inland sea map.
My start was corn+marble+gold+1FP+many trees+few hills. I hated the fact that there was no close PH to climb to. That slowed me a lot. Additionally, my early exploration was bad because building a Warrior took too long.

Started with Worker and Mediation, then Agriculture, which synchronized nicely. Worker improved corn, then Gold, then farmed FP.
Then researched PH and Writing and Alpha. I really didn't need no other worker techs at that point, so I just beelined Alpha to trade for everything left behind.

1 religion from Asoka infected me. After Alpha, the next goal was CS sling: CoL-Maths. When I got CoL and I was ready to chop 3 trees and get the CS sling next turn, I was traded Masonry. I decided to save some hammers, connected Marble and then finished Oracle with a single chop. This was nice, but I had to gather all Workers in the capital to do it, so all my other cities were delayed.

So CS sling 1280BC, 4cities, 6Workers, 3Chariot, 0GPP. GPFarm is very far, but is very good (there was a passage through the inland sea, so I scattered my cities all around the map, getting a dangerous 50% land in the end).

Why 3 chariots, you ask? Well, my 25-tiles-away neighbour Lincoln had been so nice as to give me 4 Workers in 4 different wars, so I had planned to pay him a visit.

My 4 cities were the capital already described (with zero cottages, by the way) and
- Auxiliary city with 4FP and 2 gold, would help me research without cottages.
- Auxiliary city with 2 food resources and horses, to conquer Lincoln.
- GPFarm all across the map, corn, sheep and 5FP, 18 food excess.

With Bureaucracy and Slavery, I researched Aest-Theo.
I killed Lincoln just before 1000BC. This is the main problem of my game, it was too late.

1000BC stats: 5 cities, 1settler, 8Workers, 40 sustaiable bpt, 3religions, 7rel*city, 0 temples. start Theo, start Parth. 2 of my Legendary cities are pop1, and just got my first cottages in the capital (I would have 5 at the end of the game).

Academy late, 800BC. Lite-Drama-Music(500BC). Bad luck, get a GPro, keep it. Good luck, another religion from Asoka spreads. I had planned for 2 more GS, for Philo and Educ but got only 1 in the end. That was not bad, 6 religions is a lot of cathedrals to build and my capital and Lincoln's weren't specially rich neither in hammers nor in food, although both were decent. So I didn't need to finish research so soon.

With the kind of capital Kaitzilla showed us, though, I would like to bulb as much as possible.

So worried about hammers I didn't bulb DivRig with the GPro.

By 350BC I have stone, MoM and NE. Still slavery and OR. I have 8 cities and 3 forges. Get AP, get Pyramids, HG, Sistine's.
This time Lincoln's capital should have been getting a lot of WW, but it was still getting granary and growing.

1AD 8 cities, 9Workers, 100bpt sust, 8 temples, 2cath. Keep OR and slavery, concentrate on missionaries and temples.

My cities 5-8 were food rich. I refused to settle a 9th one with fish+clams because it would have been "inferior". That's what I mean when I say that I picked really good places all around the map.


My research was nothing special. It was twice as good at the end of the game, when it didn't mattered. But with so many cathedrals to build, I didn't revolt to Castes and Pacifism so my Pyramids were useless. In a hammer rich game, stone looks more importnat than marble, cause ti allows you to get early Pyramids and research fast.

Liberalism 300AD, Revolt to FS but still OR.

500AD 6 reli in at least 6 cities. Hermit, TajMaj, Pacif and CS. 11Cath. Mercantilism without PP.
17Cath760AD, I estimate I'll win in 24turns, getting the same date as the #1 if I can use 15GA, but I see I'll get 13 only. Stress my GPFarms.

Base culture in Lincolns capital is 40c! What is the use of my multipliers then? I fail to get 2 WW. That's the price for getting the city so late. I get another GPro at low odds. Ugh.



TajMaj, plus the initial GPro, plus second GPro and free GM from Economics make 36 turns of Golden Age.

980AD, I have 18cathedrals, 2800cpt in the 3 cities, 900GPPpt in my civ.

Revolt to US after Economy, get no solution to get an extra GA from any of my 2 "too late" candidates (would have saved 3 turns). Starve my capital instead. After the last GA, revolt to FM and FR.

The last 2 GA bombed save just 1 turn between them both. :(
When the long Golden Age finished, I had to starve Lincoln's capital not to lose another turn.

21 GP in all, 2 free. 2GS: Academy, bulb Philo. 2GPro and 1GM: 2GoldenAges. 16GA: bombed 1-8-7.



I am happy I took the number 1 position if my game gets accepted but I am sad because I am convinced 1000AD is an attainable date and I couldn't prove it.
 
I played a second game that finished at 1430. I should have added one additional civ. I started with three hill/pig, marble hill and several forested plains hill. I built nine warriors with my 6 hammers per turn. I rushed Ghandi and got hinduism and judaism from Dehli. He had two warriors. I had one CR2 warrior (exp from a hut) and three regular warriors. He attacked one of my warriors and lost with minimal damage to my warrior. Dehli had 40% culture. I took killed his one warrior and took Dehli. I wasn't brave enough to try to herd his worker into the city before taking it. Missed that worker.

My next five warriors headed to Lincoln's capitol Washington. I picked up a warrior from a hut on the way. He had two warriors. I converged six warriors on his city with 20% culture expansion. He brought one warrior out to cover a worker (on a forest tile) I took the city with four warriors. I lost two trying to attack the forested warrior over a river. Missed another worker.

My point. With an extra civ, therefore a closer neighbor to rush, you can easily rush two capitols. With better luck, you can grab a few workers too. If you only plan on rushing one capitol, a worker first build is best. If you rush two from the get go, is a worker build first still better? If you are rushing a capitol on a hill, I think you would be better off if you had skipped the first worker, but you have to decide that at the start.
 
Oh well, I meant to have a really good attempt at this but didn't manage to make the time in the end. Submitted anyway - my rubbish attempt will help to highlight the excellence of the best submissions ... way ahead of me :lol::blush:
 
looking at jesusin's game, I come to think that maybe I should have worked harder to get more religions.
I only had 4 massively spread religions...
But I had added 1 more civ, and it was indeed easier to warrior rush it.
 
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