Try Capac instead. In Vanilla he is not as good (Aggressive rather than Industrious), but still. This game is all about good city spots, and with Capac you can get like 4 of them by 1000BC. Just make sure to research Pottery and Fishing before anything else.
G-Minor 27
- Thread starter Methos
- Start date
My number comes from F2 screen. I think it is the same as your first number.
When you have a prerequisite for a tech you get a 20% increase in research. 2 prerequisites, 40%. You also get something for other civs met knowing the tech. And there is the Sid beaker too. Everything is explained in "research explained" thread in the strategy forum.
You are right, I won't build research from turn 0.
Yes, I am playing vanilla. But 1 beaker is better than 0 beakers. And I will build research only when there is nothing useful to be built (in my game all banks and most factories never contributed to the victory).
I understand and I agree, beakers better than turns. But the most important things to look at are nor beakers gotten, but trading oportunities and multipliers gained.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
2000bpt is nice! But I think your tech order is not yet optimum. Robotics much earlier to give Space Elevator any chance at all to contribute. And you did not mention Replaceable Parts/Lumbermills. When did you research that, before or after SM? Keeping in mind this was a forest rich map, surely this is significant since cities can research gold/beakers. Biology before Steel/Railroads? Not sure that's right either for the same reason.
So far I am considering this tech order:
Banking -> Economics - Free Market better for beakers than Merc
beeline Democracy - Univ Suffrage, and Emancipation for happiness and want to do triple change of civics for non-Spiritual civs
Replaceable Parts - LM's on forest maps
Scientific Method -> Computers (obsoletes Great Library) - Labs
Chemistry -> Steel - IW (can take over 20 turns to build lab plus IW)
Biology
beeline Assembly Line
beeline Industrialism - Aluminum
beeline Rocketry - Apollo
Satellites - Thrusters
Robotics - Space Elevator
Genetics - build Statis Chamber in IW city before IW builds Engine
beeline Fusion - better after Genetics for simultaneous final parts build
Ecology - Life support in 2nd best production city
The big question now for me is just how soon for the SM -> Computers beeline? Replaceable Parts before or after SM? Given that it is a different research path than an AI will take, there is a good chance for trading for Constitution and maybe Democracy but not before happiness penalties I am guessing. Also, Banking and Economics before the beeline to Computers or should one ignore the GM from Economics and get one or both of these in trade? As for the GM or even a GA, in a space game you can light bulb these for partial techs as eventually every type of tech will be researched, although I think Music in a trade is preferable since Education/Univ -> Liberalism is highest priority.
This Gauntlet has run out of time by my watch, but now I'd like to play another space game.
I never went out of bureaucracy. Arguably, I never had 10 cities.
There are difficult maths to be done before taking this decision. You have Oxford in your capital, and the 50% from bureaucracy doesn't add up with other multipliers, but multiplies them. You need a very high number of towns in other cities to make up for the beakers lost in the capital. Then hammers lost and money saved have to be taken into account too.
I think in my game it was something like 25 turns, taking into account some forests chopped. It could have taken 20 turns longer and it wouldn't have delayed my victory.
It was taking me 5-7 turns per tech researched.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
I should think it took you more like 20 or less turns since by your tech order you should have had IW/LM/Alum. 25 turns is like when you don't have Aluminum, but still have lots of lumber mills, but not yet Railroads.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
jesusin: Since you're online now and posting please note the long post on build order I just made that you may not have noticed.
I am getting ready to criticize every one of your quoted sentences. But that doesn't mean that I don't think they are good ideas.
Please, bear with me, my goal in doing so is to learn more. There I go:Space Elevator contribution: Research is all that matters. I only spent 4 turns in production-only mode. The last part was built in a high hammer-multiplier city. Another boost on production would have saved only 1 turn in the final part and thus in the game. I think that I saved far more than 1 turn of research by prioritizing research-oriented techs.
Lumbermills after SM (and probably after Computers too). Who needs hammers anyway? It is true that my (scarce) workers were lying idle at the time, though.
Biology before railroads. I have no doubts about it. Additional food for additional pop will mean more beakers.
Maybe my views are too strong because I don't have played a variety of space games in different maps. Was this map hammer-rich? Was my tech-pace too low? Was my number of cities not enough for a space race?
There is another thing that is buzzing in my head. I didn't have a money city. Even if I had had a shrine (I think a GS is more rewarding than a GP used for a shrine), I would be running 100% research so a library would still be better than a market, etc... so I never went for it. I maintained 100% research by selling techs for (little) money.
Yes I have seen it, although crossposted. I hope you don't dislike my comments about that post too much.
Your research order is probably optimum if you want to maximize hammer output. That's a compliment and a criticism at the same time. I am just too little worried about hammers.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
It may come down to map type. If map is forest poor, then Replaceable Parts is a low priority, but this map was forest rich and hammers can do research/gold. Possibly on this map LM right after Computers. I had lots of captured workers in my Inca game.
Still prefer Steel/IW before Biology on this agriculture poor map. Maybe Biology first on a farm rich map. Never mentioned RR before biology, just Steel/IW.
What about Economics/Democracy before or after SM?
You are right, they should go sooner because they add to your research output.
Well, it's easy to find out. Just reload one of your old saves around 1000-1200AD, check the total science output of your empire, then switch to Free Speech, and check that again. Then see for yourself.
Bureaucracy effect indeed 'multiplies', since it affects raw commerce, but so does FS. While Bureaucracy 'adds' 3-4 commerce from each town around the capital, FS adds 2, so the difference is not that big. While Bureaucracy adds 50% to any commerce source in the capital, including gold mines, trade routes etc, Free Speech adds 2C to each town around other cities, and also reduces civic maintenance.
Of course, there are hammers, but I'd say the hammers are not that important in the mid-late game. It makes more sense to run Bureaucracy all the time when running SE economy, but then again, the Oxford city must NOT be your capital in this case.
Conquistador 63
Deity
Although the details on the optimal late research order are important, I played a 2nd game mainly to investigate the potential benefit of an early PA (unsure if I submitted in time for the gauntlet, but it was accepted for HoF anyway).
Unfortunately I'm not able to fully compare the game result with my 1st try (both Vanilla), just because I picked Qin instead of Capac. A decision guided by the fun (and QM) aspect but completely anti-scientifical.
Both games were played on thin continents, 10 AI.
As Capac I had conquered 2 AI before 1000BC, had 4 cities and room for 11 total which were founded up to 1AD. As Qin I had only 2 cities before going into my 1st war which was 300BC/250AD, and 2nd war 300AD/1000AD, getting me 11 cities total again, but much later.
Anyway, in this last game I got Oracle CS 1600BC and Liberalism(Democracy) in 920AD. Communism and instant PA with Mansa in 1250AD. I was running Rep/Bur/Emanc/FM/FR for the rest of the game. Other milestones: Bio 1270AD; Computers 1555AD; Rocketry 1610AD; Industrialism/RR 1665AD; Apollo 1700AD; Fusion 1822AD; Ecology 1828AD. Last parts done at same turn, 1840AD, 1842AD finish.
In the Capac game: no Oracle, CS 350AD; Lib(Steel) 1200AD; Bio 1330AD; Demo 1410AD; Computers 1600AD; Rocketry 1675AD; Industrialism 1695AD; Communism 1730AD, Apollo 1755AD; PA with MM 1785AD; Fusion 1830AD; Ecology 1836AD. Last part (Engine) done 1852AD, 1854AD finish.
While the slight difference between the final results doesn't reflect the full potential benefit of the PA, I would still go for it in a future space race game. I know there is a penalty to the tech costs after you engage in a PA, but I think there is still a benefit, which would be amplified in higher difficult levels. Any comments?
Unfortunately I'm not able to fully compare the game result with my 1st try (both Vanilla), just because I picked Qin instead of Capac. A decision guided by the fun (and QM) aspect but completely anti-scientifical.
Both games were played on thin continents, 10 AI.
As Capac I had conquered 2 AI before 1000BC, had 4 cities and room for 11 total which were founded up to 1AD. As Qin I had only 2 cities before going into my 1st war which was 300BC/250AD, and 2nd war 300AD/1000AD, getting me 11 cities total again, but much later.
Anyway, in this last game I got Oracle CS 1600BC and Liberalism(Democracy) in 920AD. Communism and instant PA with Mansa in 1250AD. I was running Rep/Bur/Emanc/FM/FR for the rest of the game. Other milestones: Bio 1270AD; Computers 1555AD; Rocketry 1610AD; Industrialism/RR 1665AD; Apollo 1700AD; Fusion 1822AD; Ecology 1828AD. Last parts done at same turn, 1840AD, 1842AD finish.
In the Capac game: no Oracle, CS 350AD; Lib(Steel) 1200AD; Bio 1330AD; Demo 1410AD; Computers 1600AD; Rocketry 1675AD; Industrialism 1695AD; Communism 1730AD, Apollo 1755AD; PA with MM 1785AD; Fusion 1830AD; Ecology 1836AD. Last part (Engine) done 1852AD, 1854AD finish.
While the slight difference between the final results doesn't reflect the full potential benefit of the PA, I would still go for it in a future space race game. I know there is a penalty to the tech costs after you engage in a PA, but I think there is still a benefit, which would be amplified in higher difficult levels. Any comments?
Did you notice an incredible research output from your partner in the initial turns of the PA, like Conquistador63 and me?
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
Although the details on the optimal late research order are important, I played a 2nd game mainly to investigate the potential benefit of an early PA (unsure if I submitted in time for the gauntlet, but it was accepted for HoF anyway).
Unfortunately I'm not able to fully compare the game result with my 1st try (both Vanilla), just because I picked Qin instead of Capac. A decision guided by the fun (and QM) aspect but completely anti-scientifical.
Both games were played on thin continents, 10 AI.
As Capac I had conquered 2 AI before 1000BC, had 4 cities and room for 11 total which were founded up to 1AD. As Qin I had only 2 cities before going into my 1st war which was 300BC/250AD, and 2nd war 300AD/1000AD, getting me 11 cities total again, but much later.
Anyway, in this last game I got Oracle CS 1600BC and Liberalism(Democracy) in 920AD. Communism and instant PA with Mansa in 1250AD. I was running Rep/Bur/Emanc/FM/FR for the rest of the game. Other milestones: Bio 1270AD; Computers 1555AD; Rocketry 1610AD; Industrialism/RR 1665AD; Apollo 1700AD; Fusion 1822AD; Ecology 1828AD. Last parts done at same turn, 1840AD, 1842AD finish.
In the Capac game: no Oracle, CS 350AD; Lib(Steel) 1200AD; Bio 1330AD; Demo 1410AD; Computers 1600AD; Rocketry 1675AD; Industrialism 1695AD; Communism 1730AD, Apollo 1755AD; PA with MM 1785AD; Fusion 1830AD; Ecology 1836AD. Last part (Engine) done 1852AD, 1854AD finish.
While the slight difference between the final results doesn't reflect the full potential benefit of the PA, I would still go for it in a future space race game. I know there is a penalty to the tech costs after you engage in a PA, but I think there is still a benefit, which would be amplified in higher difficult levels. Any comments?
Yeah, I like that vanilla Qin, same traits as HC in warlords.
He gave you a very nice 1600BC Oracle -> CS slingshot due to industrial and no mathematics pre-requisite. Hope we have another medium difficulty space Gauntlet soon so I can try him. Although he doesn't have the uber Quechua, if you get to Machinery quickly you get the collateral damage Cho Ko Nu (almost cat lite). Your HC game was hurt by the missed Oracle and late CS. Still PA gave a good result! Not sure I'd try one myself as it makes me nervous to rely on AI alliance. Does seem to be a viable strat however.
That combination, Rep/Bur/Emanc/FM/FR, is the best for the typical number of cities we have in a space race game. That's why your choice of Liberalism -> Democracy is one of the best ways to play it.
That combination, Rep/Bur/Emanc/FM/FR, is the best for the typical number of cities we have in a space race game. That's why your choice of Liberalism -> Democracy is one of the best ways to play it.
I am not used to long-lasting games, so I could be saying something stupid, but, aren't Rep and Emanc contradictory?
I would use Rep with lots of specialists, so I would then want to run CasteSystem. I would use Emanc for growing lots of cottages, so I would want to run US for the additional hammer.
Maybe the effect of US is not so big and Rep is better even when running only a few specialists????
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
Universal Sufferage with its +1 hammer per town and can spend gold to finish production is not IMO as effective at this point in a space game where even you admitted hammers were not as important as research. I still have two scientists and the two free ones from Great Library typically at this point. That's a few additional beakers base, plus multipliers. And Reprisentation is almost certainly better than Hereditary rule at this point given a lot of good resources are hooked up or traded for and buildings are taken into account for smaller cities, and if only one military unit is in each city anyway. Perhaps later in the game US is useful to get the hammers without raising the cottages for WM if you are willing to loose a turn of research for non-Spiritual traits. I did use US to buy the IW in my Liz game IIRC. That saved me several turns I'm sure.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Emancipation is good for fast cottage growth, but if you're running lots of scientists with CS, you can stay there.
Usually i evaluate my cities, then i decide if a switch is worth.
US is completely useless in a space race, since you can't rush SS parts.
of course you can rush labs or factories, but at the expenses of research, if you got to save money for rushes.
The only way to make good use of US is in the cultural games, IMHO.
In addiction the anarchy factor.
Usually i evaluate my cities, then i decide if a switch is worth.
US is completely useless in a space race, since you can't rush SS parts.
of course you can rush labs or factories, but at the expenses of research, if you got to save money for rushes.
The only way to make good use of US is in the cultural games, IMHO.
In addiction the anarchy factor.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
Right. Caste is very nice. It's just that in anticipation of the AI's all switching to Emancipation with the ensuing happiness penalties, I like to switch to Eman/Repr as soon as I can and get some happiness and beakers from Repr. In a space game I'm usually not running more than a couple of scientists. Even then, you can run extra scientists beyond two with Oxford so shouldn't be a problem to give up Cast, although I may be running slavery or serfdom at this point. But certainly each game requires its own evaluation. Or if I haven't already switched to FM/FR, I'll add them in too when I get Democracy. As for US, I mentioned previously that I did switch to US in order to buy an IW, a turn before Apollo could be researched, so that was kind of an emergency. Otherwise it may be a toss up whether +1 hammers is needed more than a bit more research.
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