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G-Minor 70

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Denniz, Apr 10, 2009.

  1. unclethrill

    unclethrill Why am I up right now?

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    I leave Gandhi out for similar reasons. He always gets a couple early religions, in about 10 turns he will take the AP religion to every city he has and a few he doesn't and he never seems to vote for me.
     
  2. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    I'm unconvinced about the "time to build the settler" thing, if you can just pop rush a settler.
    It didn't work well for me because of maintenance though.
     
  3. unclethrill

    unclethrill Why am I up right now?

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    I built a settler in one game and plopped him down on marble that was a bit outside my borders. I had roaded it up already so I was able to use it to build the Oracle in my capital. Then I could build missionaries in the second city while I was building the oracle in the first. I built a settler in lieu of a couple more workers. It worked out okay in this situation since I had very few forests.
     
  4. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    I've built a settler before to gift a city to the AI ;) Helps alleviate close border tension penalties.

    And I'm up to second to last place now ;)
     
  5. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    That must mean that I am in last place. I will have to improve that when I goto work tomorrow night.
     
  6. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Excluding Gandhi:

    Another potential reason to exclude Gandhi is he may not necessarily Vote for you in a RL DV ballot when your Visible Diplomacy with him is +6 plus his Hidden Attitude = +8 Diplomacy total. This happened to me in one game, but I suppose I had a -1 or -2 Hidden adjustment to his Diplomacy, dropping it from +8 to +7 or even +6. There are a total of 4 Hidden Diplomacy Adjustments, which are usually in the Player's favor when he is at the bottom of the Score list (almost always the case in a Deity RL DV game).

    I've never had Gandhi hording Religions so much in my Gm-70 games that neither Hatshepsut or Ramesses II would fail to complete Monotheism very early and adopt Organized Religion. However, either Hatshepsut or Ramesses II would avoid Monotheism and I'd have to Gift it the Civ after I completed Alphabet very late in the game, so the Shared Favorite Civic would be worth only a +1 Diplomacy adjustment in determining its RL DV Vote.

    On the other hand, Gandhi does share his State Religion with other Civs early enough that they convert to it before you need to convert one of their Cities to TAP Religion. I do suspect that another Civ may be better at Sharing Religions.

    Opponents with Religious or Cultural goal:

    In one game, I replaced Gandhi with Mansa Musa. Mansa Musa and Ramesses II became Worst Enemies for nearly the entire game, probably due to the difference in their Peace Weights (9 - 6 = 3) and both founding and converting to different Religions. The Worst Enemies state is less likely between two Civs with different State Religions when at least one of them did NOT found their State Religion.

    I prefer to include Opponents with Religious goals or Cultural goals (AIs with a Cultural goal will often found Religions to increase their Culture), since they will prioritize Technologies that found Religions and they will convert to those Religions. The Civs with Religious goals will also spread their Religion, so they are the best to have. See my previous post in this thread for which Civs have either Religious or Cultural goals, but I'm not sure its complete.

    No. of Workers?:

    I have built usually 3-4 Workers for Gm-70 games. In my Marathon RL DV games, I've often built 5 Workers, but Epic speed is entirely different with its 5t Forest Chops as opposed to 9t Forest Chops at Marathon speed.

    Five workers may be better for Gm-70, assuming one can find the time to build them.

    The number of Workers may also be limited by the Number of maintenance free units a Civ can maintain. For Civs with less than 5 Population the number of maintenance free units is just five units. Each unit maintained above that limit costs 1 GPt. So, unless one has a limitless Treasury, there is a limit on the number of units that can be maintained. Later in the Game, you must also allow for 1-3 TAP Religion Missionaries and possibly one or more Non-TAP Religion Missionaries to convert Civs lacking any Religion (before converting one of their Cities to the TAP Religion).

    My recommendation is build 3 Workers. Trying to build more could improve the speed at which TAP is built, but you may end up saving only a few turns. Worst, Alphabet may not be completed in time to affect the first RL DV Vote if TAP is built too soon. On the other hand, having 4 Workers is nice for spamming TAP Religion Missionaries in the time between completing TAP and the first RL DV Ballot (14 turns at Epic speed).

    Build more Workers, if there's nothing better to build and your City is as large as you want or is already at its Happiness Cap. Do remember that extra Workers that cause one to exceed the maintenance free unit limit will cost 1 Gpt per unit above that limit; so one had better have a Fat Treasury or one's Research must dip below 100% by some moderate amount (80-90%).

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  7. Miraculix

    Miraculix Warlord

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    But that assumes that you can build something useful instead of the settler. Assuming that you can build both a settler and the Oracle before learning writing, your settler wouldn't compete with building missionaries. You could certainly build workers instead of the settler, but if you build too many workers, they tend to be useless if all the forrest is chopped before the AP is finnished.
     
  8. Misotu

    Misotu King

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    Thanks for these posts - very useful info.

    I certainly find that if I have sufficient forest and lots of trees, 3 workers gives a faster result. I'm probably wrong, but I think 5 is not going to work except in very special circumstances (about 84 forests within cultural borders or something :lol:)

    I hadn't actually noticed that the city size break point for more maintenance-free units is 5. That is very useful to know.

    Yes, that's exactly what happened on my last game. Lovely game, 3 workers. I actually had 2 missionaries hanging around in the final civ (in case one failed) while alphabet was researched. Based on what I've done in the past, I thought finishing alphabet on the same turn as the DV came up would enable me to gift Theology and alphabet to all for the +4 bonus. But it didn't. I gifted - Hattie was +9, Ramesses +10. No other candidates. The result came up next turn ... no-one voted for me :rolleyes:

    The DV option came up in 1575BC, so that would have been my best game by some margin. And probably my last try for the Gauntlet. Oh well. Won't be doing that again :sad:
     
  9. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    The reason One City is best is because that One City can produce everything needed for an early RL DV. The things that must be build in a RL DV are ordered serially, especially the World Wonders:

    1) Workers - 3 or more
    2) The Oracle which provides Theology
    3) The Apostolic Palace
    4) TAP Religion Missionaries - 3 or more

    The biggest problem with trying to use two Cities is the two required World Wonders can't be built at the same time. One has to build The Oracle first to get Theology before The Apostolic Palace can even be started. So, its more efficient to build both World Wonders in the same City, assuming it has sufficient Forests for the World Wonders and at least 3 TAP Religion Missionaries. After completing TAP, a single City is again all that is needed to build the three required TAP Religion Missionaries, assuming the three Civs yet to be converted are not to far away for the Missionaries to reach prior to the first TAP RL DV chance (for Epic speed, 14 turns after TAP completion).

    For Epic speed, one has 14 turns to build 3 TAP Religion Missionaries and get them to the City they are "destined" to Convert. With 3 Workers and sufficient remaining Forests this should be easy to do with a single City. If one didn't have to wait 14 turns after TAP is built for the RL DV Ballot, it might make sense to built a second City that built only TAP Religion Missionaries. However, that is not the case and thus a single City is more efficient at achieving a RL DV than any Strategy involving two or more Cities.

    Good point. Flipping a City would be free of costs except minor maintenance. This may be better than a single City, but there's no sure way of getting Civs to build Cities close enough to Flip or having enough Culture to Flip them. So I'd just look at it as a tactical variation on the basic single City Strategy.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  10. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    In one of my games Ragnar gifted me a city and then declared war a few turns later, madness :lol:
     
  11. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I find that a 2nd city works out okay for a less than optimal start (fewer forests). In a couple of my games, I chopped a settler out of the Capital to have him settle a 2nd city on top of Marble or near another commerce resource (Gold, Silver, etc.). I use the 2nd city to chop the Oracle and leave the remaining forests in the Capital to chop TAP. I also use the 2nd city to build missionaries while TAP is being built.

    I can't claim to have the best finish dates to the game so far. I have been able to complete TAP as early as turn 89 with both one and two city strategies. I just have not won the initial Diplo VC vote when I finish this early. As Miraculix pointed out, there is often no downside to building a Settler is it is before Priesthood is researched and there is nothing better to build. This is especially true with a heavy food start where the Capital grows to size 5-6 early on.
     
  12. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    You don't need marble since you are going to build the oracle after researching writing, masonry and monotheism.
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Let's examine the extreme case of Pop rushing a Settler on the first build turn (a single turn build):

    Pop rushing a Settler on the first build turn (a single turn build) would require a Population 10 City. A Settler at Epic speed costs 149 hammers. "Emergency/Single turn" rushing provides 30 Hammers per Population unit consumed, thus 149 / 30 = 5 Population units would be consumed. To Pop rush 5 Population units, a City of at least 10 Population would be required. I doubt anyone would be able to achieve sustained growth to a Size 10 City and Win a RL DV in less than 100 turns (1500 BC Epic speed). I'm not sure there is enough early Happiness Resources available to keep all Citizens happy and working (although this is not required with enough excess Food and a tolerance for Lazy Citizens). This type of Settler Pop rushing is extremely expensive.

    Let's examine the usual case of Pop rushing a Settler on the second build turn (a two turn build):

    Pop rushing a Settler on the second build turn (a two turn build) would require a Population 8 or maybe Population 6 City. A Settler at Epic speed costs 149 hammers. "Second build turn" rushing provides 45 Hammers per Population unit consumed, thus 149 / 45 = 3.31 = 4 Population units would be consumed. This does not take into account the Hammers the City's Worked Tiles and Specialists provide in both turns. If the City provides at least 7 Hammers in each turn, 149 - 2 * 7 = 135 Hammers must be provided via Pop rushing. Pop rushing 135 Hammers will consume 135 / 45 = 3 Population units. It is reasonable to assume the City can provide at least 14 Hammers during the two turn Settler build (not counting the Hammers produced via Pop rushing), so only 3 Population units need be consumed in Pop rushing the Settler. To Pop rush 3 Population units, a City of at least 6 Population would be required. Growing a City to Population 6 is feasible on the way to Winning a RL DV in less than 100 turns (1500 BC Epic speed). However, the City's Food, Production and/or Commerce capacity would be drastically reduced in going from Population 6 down to Population 3. The price paid is a reduction in the City's capacity in Food, Production and Commerce until the City can grow to its former Size which will probably take around 20 turns under good circumstances. In the mean time, delays in Growth, Production and Commerce can be expected. So even in this case, Pop rushing is very expensive.

    Would Chop rushing be preferable?:

    In my opinion, it would make more sense to Chop rush a Settler which can be done in a single turn with the cost of 5 well timed Forest Chops. However, it may be better to Chop rush something other than a Settler like The Oracle or The Apostolic Palace or even TAP Religion Missionaries.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Giving away a City for the Diplomatic bonus:

    This is also a great way to gain a very good Diplomatic bonus with a Civ without needing Alphabet to Give away Technologies in exchange for favorable Diplomacy in other matters such as the RL DV Vote.

    On the other hand, it is a very expensive way to gain Diplomatic favor.

    Spreading TAP Religion without Open Borders:

    This is also one way to give an Opponent access to TAP Religion without needing Open Borders in the case where your Diplomacy has gotten so bad that the Civ refuses Open Borders offers. Just spread TAP Religion to the City before Giving it away.

    It's still expensive, but allows one to do what would otherwise be impossible.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  15. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    The problem was all the Civs cast their vote based on the Diplomacy you had with them at the precise instance of the RL DV ballot. Improving your Diplomacy later in the turn (after the ballot) has no effect on these Civs' already cast ballots. I once had a similar situation where I completed Alphabet on the same (actually it is the turn just prior to the RL DV ballot). Just before the RL DV ballot came up, Zara Yaqob asked for a trade and I change it to gifting him Theology and it affected Zara's RL DV Vote. I gifted Theology to the remaining Civs in the same turn after the RL DV ballot and the generous gift greatly improved my Diplomacy to >= +8, but their votes were all "Abstain" due to my Diplomacy with them being around +4 at the precise time the ballot occurred.

    Be sure to get Alphabet 2-4 turns before the RL DV ballot:

    1) Finishing Alphabet one turn before the RL DV ballot is nearly useless as my example above illustrated. Alphabet has been completed too late to affect the RL DV ballot, except when a Civ initiates a trade with you, again as illustrated in the example above.

    2) Finishing Alphabet two turns before the RL DV ballot allows for just one turn of trading before the RL DV ballot. This is sufficient for Civs that already have prerequisites for Alphabet and/or especially Theology. Gifting Theology will be more than enough to get +4 Diplomacy unless the Civ has Already researched a significant portion of Theology. Gifting Alphabet to a Civ that hasn't yet started Alphabet can by itself also provide +4 Diplomacy.

    3) Finishing Alphabet three turns before the RL DV ballot allows for two turns of trading before the RL DV ballot. The first turn can be used to trade the immediate prerequisites of Alphabet and Theology. The second turn can be used to give away Alphabet and Theology. Thus, two levels of Technologies ending in Alphabet and Theology can be traded/gifted.

    4) Finishing Alphabet four turns before the RL DV ballot allows for three turns of trading before the RL DV ballot. The first turn can be used to trade the immediate prerequisites of the immediate prerequisites of Alphabet and Theology. The second turn can be used to trade the immediate prerequisites of Alphabet and Theology. The third turn can be used to give away Alphabet and Theology. Thus, three levels of Technologies ending in Alphabet and Theology can be traded/gifted.

    5) Finishing Alphabet five turns before the RL DV ballot allows for four turns of trading before the RL DV ballot. Rarely required, unless a Civ is extremely backward in some branch of Technology leading to Alphabet or Theology. Otherwise, this situation is the same as #4 above with one turn to waste with regard to trading/gifting Technologies.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  16. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Deity AI already have alphabet when I win so /meh ;)
     
  17. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I already have Monotheism. As was suggested by one of the elite players, getting Monotheism before Priesthood allows you to have a greater shared civic bonus with civs that like Organized Religion. I am only teching Writing while building the Oracle.
     
  18. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I'm actually not last place. I had assumed that you had improved your finish date. I had not considered that there as another finisher at a later date. I'm currently 13 out of 15. Not a stellar finish, but at least I have added 7 civs and maps to my Diety EQM.
     
  19. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Woohoo someone is worse than us ;)

    EDIT: For now :lol:
     
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I must agree that a "Two City Strategy may be the best for starts lacking enough Forests or Marble" as you mentioned above. You may be well on your way to refining an excellent "Two City Strategy".

    An alternative Civ to play for a "Two City Strategy" would be Augustus. He has the Industrious trait that is almost critical and the imperialistic trait that provides a +50% Hammer bonus when building Settlers. He also starts with Mining which allows High Commerce Tiles by improving Gems, Gold or even Silver. Note that he also starts with Fishing, so building Work Boats for Clam, Crab or Fish may be the best source of Food plus one can sustain Growth while building Work Boats and 2C per Shore Tile worked which is much better than the 0C or 1C that Corn, Wheat and Rice provides.

    Such a "Two City Strategy" would be applicable to most starts on any Map with at least a moderate density of Forests (like Pangaea), excluding the Boreal Map. The Boreal Map's Forest density is so high that nearly any start would have sufficient Forests for a Single City Strategy.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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