G-Minor 94

[Infantry#14]

Congratulations!

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How did the number of Rice Farms compare to Cereal Mills Resources?

Don't dismiss Sid's Sushi simply due to the lack of Seafood Resources. Rice is plentiful on the Rainforest Map and may appear in sufficient quantities to justify incorporating Sid's Sushi. It may in fact be better than Cereal Mills and is clearly available sooner (Medicine versus Refrigeration).

On the other hand, Refrigeration is on a reasonable quick path to Super Conductors.

Sun Tzu Wu

also, cereal mill has a higher output of food per resource than sid sushi. And rice is 1 of the cereal mill resources.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

also, cereal mill has a higher output of food per resource than sid sushi. And rice is 1 of the cereal mill resources.

Thanks for pointing out above the facts. (I should check my own facts out, before speaking out.)

Unless Culture is critically important (which it is not in this Gauntlet), Cereal Mills is clearly superior to Sid's Sushi on Rainforest Maps.

Just the Rice Farms available on a Rainforest Maps could easily justify the incorporation of Cereal Mills.

As WastinTime mentioned:

I have to believe that corporations are going to shave off a couple hundred years.

I agree and would claim that Cereal Mills must be one of those Corporations. Mining, Inc. would have to provide the Production on this Map despite the density of its Resources being somewhat less than ideal. After founding Mining, Inc. in a City, it will be much easier to build a Factory, Power Plant and Industrial Park there. Cereal Mills will help allow working 8 Engineers and 11 Engineers with Ironworks beyond the free Engineer that comes with the Industrial Park. Also, don't forget to build a Levee in Cities next to a River.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dynamic]

Corporations are better for small maps where the player has 2/3 of the map. In this case:
1) Player has a high % of required resourse -> high corp effect;
2) Player can insert more cities inside his own territory or near the borders (he can't found it beyond bacause of Domination limit). Corporations can do profitable even city with several own tiles.

But for big maps on non-Marathon speed with high food player haven't enough time for capture all these lands. State Property is available earlier then Corporations so Player can build and develop more cities and reach Assambly Plant earlier.

 

[iggymnrr]

Interesting discussion on state property versus corporations. I'll offer up some arguments for state property based on research from other fast space games and my own experience which leads to the following hypothesis: the faster space is achieved the more attractive state property becomes. This theory may apply only to the lower levels where the player has no real competition from the AI and can "write his own ticket."

Transportation: it takes time for corporate execs to travel. On lower levels where early AI aggression is possible a player's civilization is often disconnected. Time needs to be expended to build a connecting road network. Is it worth it? The matter may resolve itself with further expansion but on a large map this is probably not possible due to sheer tech speed limiting the time window for expansion. Without roads corporate travel will be slow. My recent game had a civilization with 4 distinct areas which can be looked at as home and 3 satraps. Due to the nature of a rainforest map, a single river-to-river road was sufficient to connect resources everywhere. The only units to travel "cross country" were a worker to get the GPF site up and running, a settler to finish off expansion, and a scientist for an academy. Building a road network was a complete waste of time for such limited travel. (In fact, I even forwent railroading some mines in favor of workshops. I had state property working and workshops seemed like a better investment of limited time.)

GP usage: Not only does state property yield immediate benefits, it will most likely mean an extra 12-turn golden age since GPs will not be used for corporations. With time flying by rapidly, corporate expense/hammers/expansion needs to be weighed against profit. That profit must be saved turns for space. State property does yield a GP for a golden age compensating for the time researching it. A sheer tech game means state property is available in ~2 turns of research. Pragmatically speaking, this is a good investment of time which is rapidly going by. Corporations may theoretically end up being proved best. But from a practical point of view, it may not be as fast as expected and may require a very good map. Two weeks are allowed for the gauntlet. Better find that map fast!

Workers: A player can build workers long before corporate executives. The rainforest map has many pockets of multiple resources which can be workshopped/watermilled/mined/windmilled early, putting hammers and beakers on the table ASAP not waiting for corporate availability. These improvements get better with state property. If these improvements get retooled for corporations, it would destroy the cities themselves. If they are not retooled, the corporations would be weak. About half of the cities in my game were settled in jungle pockets of resources and workers went straight into improving them for state property before that tech was available. Most resources did not get the normal improvements but were "state property" improved from the get go. As an example, one dual river city had 4 rice and bananas. The bananas got a plantation but 1 rice was mined and the other 3 rice were summarily water-wheeled. This was in advance of state property which had the effect of yielding hammers/beakers ASAP and it only got better. Cereal Mills would have had a drastic effect on this and all other cities developed along these lines.

In summary, this is settler level where workers are king. Its as if you can imagine a bevy of them raising a hand and ... sending a message to the corporate executives.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Corporations are better for small maps where the player has 2/3 of the map. In this case:
1) Player has a high % of required resourse -> high corp effect;
2) Player can insert more cities inside his own territory or near the borders (he can't found it beyond bacause of Domination limit). Corporations can do profitable even city with several own tiles.

But for big maps on non-Marathon speed with high food player haven't enough time for capture all these lands. State Property is available earlier then Corporations so Player can build and develop more cities and reach Assambly Plant earlier.

I disagree with the point that Corporations are better on Smaller Maps. They are better on Larger Maps, whenever the Map Type has surpluses of Corporation Resources.

One can trade for the Corporation Resources that One doesn't have. In fact that is the easiest way to acquire them. Do not fall into the trap of thinking one must own Corporation Resources. Vast Numbers of Corporation Resources will become available for trade on the turn a Corporation's Headquarters is founded.

Your argument would apply better to the Number of AI Opponents. The fewer the number of AI Opponents, the greater the Number of Corporation Resources that will become available for trade. Before an AI Opponent has Corporations (or more to the point, a specific Corporation), it will want to keep or trade for only one example of each Resource and will trade any excess it owns (with the possible exception of Strategic Resources). This effectively takes out of circulation up to the Number of Opponents # of any particular Resource.

As far as Map Size is concerned, a Larger Map will generally have proportionally more of a particular Resource than a Smaller Map, given the Same Map Type and Map Parameters. After each AI Opponent takes 1 of each Resource out of circulation, the rest become available for trade, when the first corresponding Corporation is founded. I have not noticed fewer Corporation Resources available for trade on Larger Maps; in fact, quite the opposite seems to be the case; there are more Corporation Resources available for trade on Larger Maps, because Larger Maps generally have more of a Corporation Resource (when they do have a surplus of such Resources).

There are a few caveats:

1) The Corporation one plans to found must have synergy with the chosen Map Type - The Map Type chosen must in general have far more Corporation Resources than the planned Number of AI Opponents, measured on a per specific Resource basis.

2) Do not spread your most important Corporations to an AI Opponent that has a surplus of that Corporation's Resources. They will naturally stop trading that Resource to you.

3) Do not spread minor Corporations (cash cows) to an AI Opponent that has a surplus of that Corporation's Resources that are in conflict with your most important Corporations. They will (again) naturally stop trading that Resource to you, hurting your most important Corporations.

4) There may be other, probably less important, caveats that simply aren't coming to mind right now.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

State Property is powerful, but Corporations can be better with a Map Type that has a surplus of the appropriate Corporation Resources.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[iggymnrr]

State Property is powerful, but Corporations can be better with a Map Type that has a surplus of the appropriate Corporation Resources.

My own comparison between state property and corporations is based solely on tech speed, nothing else. Assuming the late game techs can all be researched in 2 turns or less, which would you rather have: state property or corporations?

I've never seen a game tech so rapidly before and it really does something to game play The first phase can be described as classical/normal but the mid-to-late phases really challenged every normal instinct. Everything goes towards keeping the snowball rolling. Only one resource needs to be connected to the empire. Any surplus doesn't need a road nor improved normally. Move the worker(s) to the next tile and improve it. Repeat. The time pressure is intense. Cities on rivers don't even need a road/railroad at all. They may come later but the time pressure is like the line from Back to the Future, "Where this game is going, it won't need roads." It's really hard to imagine corporations being useful in such a short time frame.

 

[WastinTime]

short time frame? You should have corps running in the BC years. 1000 AD is a long way off.

 

[iggymnrr]

short time frame? You should have corps running in the BC years. 1000 AD is a long way off.

Thanks. Something to compare against. I checked the 1AD save: sci meth down to 1 turn, corp 2 turns away with steam power and steel in. <thinking out loud> Are BC corps possible at normal speed? If they are then state property also is. After corp, I liberalismed assembly line (cheap factories.) Hmmm. Biology can be substituted for steam power opening the path to the wrong food corp for this map. Avoiding steel would have put me on the right food corp path. But the food resources were already being state property improved but not that much. Seems like I was about par for the corporate path. Hmmm. Three academies and 2 bulbs by this point. Substitute bulbs for a couple of academies and you have BC corps. So it looks like the debate between corps and state property is still close. Mining Inc didn't looked too attractive so the engineer that was soon due (risking a scientist) was used for the SoL/state property combo. It looks like it becomes a question of how much Cereal Mills would have offset the hammers/beakers gained from the financial state property improvements on rice etc. and the academies instead of bulbs. This doesn't shed a lot of light on the debate but may point towards something else:

Never go up against Darius when space is on the line.

Edit: Checked the turn count for normal speed. From 1 AD to the BTS 1080 AD ship launch is ~53 turns. Either BC corps or state property leaves ~25 techs, or close to 2 turns per tech plus build time. 1000 AD comes around very fast at that pace. It also means corps have to outstrip state property in ~53 turns. Ergo, the faster the tech speed the fewer the turns corps have available to beat out state property. Since state property and corps can be achieved at about the same time the maximum tech speed to be considered is 1 tech per turn or about 25 turns. Can corps outpace state property in that time frame? I am postulating a negative answer, hence the hypothesis: the faster space is achieved the more attractive state property becomes. Admittedly, it is a semantic argument in that it doesn't advocate state property. It only suggests that state property is a pragmatic solution.

 

[shulec]

I started trying this a few times, but quickly lost interest because it took too long.
Points of interest:
1. I played against Washinton, Lincoln, Pacal, Elizabeth, Isabella, Hannibal, Napoleon and Ghandi since none of them start with hunting, aren't creative, industrious (probably not important), imperialistic, aggressive or protective. Civs without these traits are easier to take with 2-3 warriors via the settle near the emeny approach.
2. For exploration, Asoka works best with flood plain starts to get the most out of your 3 moves. Of course two moves in jungles are beneficial.
3. Early begging is extremely lucrative. The AI will give almost anything but bronze working early on. (I went AH, writing, Alph).

 

[Dynamic]

I disagree with the point that Corporations are better on Smaller Maps. They are better on Larger Maps, whenever the Map Type has surpluses of Corporation Resources.

One can trade for the Corporation Resources that One doesn't have. In fact that is the easiest way to acquire them.

It's not right for low levels. AI have too small areas to capture high amount of resource.

And what is the price for each corp resource trade?
I never played Large and Huge maps (and will not play) bacause of time limit, but it's interesting for me.
It looks like we need turnament for comparing this 2 ways to stars.
I note that in case we use Cattage-economy (high levels, need more commerce and AI reach Democracy earlier) Corporations stay the only way to improve Hammers output and good growth of the cities.

 

[iggymnrr]

1. I played against Washinton, Lincoln, Pacal, Elizabeth, Isabella, Hannibal, Napoleon and Ghandi since none of them start with hunting, aren't creative, industrious (probably not important), imperialistic, aggressive or protective. Civs without these traits are easier to take with 2-3 warriors via the settle near the emeny approach.

At this level it usually takes the AI 14 turns to build a warrior. An AI capitol can be taken as late as turn 13 with 1 warrior.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

At this level it usually takes the AI 14 turns to build a warrior. An AI capitol can be taken as late as turn 13 with 1 warrior.

So the Grand Unified, Settler level, Normal Speed, Optimal Strategy becomes:

1) Pop about six Settlers from Huts.
2) Move each one (including the original one) close to one of the eight AI Capitals.
3) Settle each of the seven Settlers on a PH next to PHF, so Hammer rate is 5 Hpt.
4) Build Warriors every three turns (Warrior = 15H = 3t x 5Hpt).
5) Attack each AI Capital when sufficient Warriors are mustered by its "sister" City.
6) Raze or keep each Capital as the economy can absorb the new Cities.
7) Keep remaining Civ on a very short leash.
8) Build Space Ship in the faster way possible.

Only serious ... er .... joking.

The real problem with winning at Settler level as early as possible is there are so many Winning combinations of Strategies and Tactics that it may be virtually impossible to filter them leaving the truly optimal Strategy and supporting Tactics at the Top of the Heap. From what I've seen on this thread, I doubt that any one is even close to the Optimal Strategy for this Gauntlet.

One bad assumption, and the supposedly "Optimal Strategy" ends up on the Scrap Heap of broken Strategies.

An Optimal Strategy would be much easier to devise, if Huts were banned.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[billybgame]

Done with mine. 1824. Guess I have a lot to learn if someone's doing it thousands of years earlier.

I had 14 cities, most in great locations. Didn't get great early hut luck, but, eventually, I think I found 5 or 6 settlers. Some had to go 20 turns to get back to my building area. But, my cities ended up monsters, many reaching size 30, and nearly all the rest 20-30.

No wars. Tech rate ran pretty great, most of the game. Only early on, when going to 6, 7, 8, 9 cities, did it lag down to 60 or 50, but it still didn't slow me down much.

If someone can get this done around 1100 or 1000 AD, there has got to be some interesting tricks.

 

[iggymnrr]

So the Grand Unified, Settler level, Normal Speed, Optimal Strategy becomes:

1) Pop about six Settlers from Huts.
2) Move each one (including the original one) close to one of the eight AI Capitals.
3) Settle each of the seven Settlers on a PH next to PHF, so Hammer rate is 5 Hpt.
4) Build Warriors every three turns (Warrior = 15H = 3t x 5Hpt).
5) Attack each AI Capital when sufficient Warriors are mustered by its "sister" City.
6) Raze or keep each Capital as the economy can absorb the new Cities.
7) Keep remaining Civ on a very short leash.
8) Build Space Ship in the faster way possible.

Only serious ... er .... joking.

The real problem with winning at Settler level as early as possible is there are so many Winning combinations of Strategies and Tactics that it may be virtually impossible to filter them leaving the truly optimal Strategy and supporting Tactics at the Top of the Heap. From what I've seen on this thread, I doubt that any one is even close to the Optimal Strategy for this Gauntlet.

One bad assumption, and the supposedly "Optimal Strategy" ends up on the Scrap Heap of broken Strategies.

An Optimal Strategy would be much easier to devise, if Huts were banned.

Sun Tzu Wu

You are closer to the truth than you realize. The strategy you described is marathon speed in a nutshell w/no city razing. It doesn't work so well here. Step # 6 isn't necessary in BTS, only Warlords/Vanilla. (Yes, there are guys like me who have thought this deeply about settler level--a different gauntlet.)

Normal speed in a nutshell:
1. A modest but steady investment in exploration: build warrior/scout or scout/warrior. So long as you get 3 or 4 units from the first few huts it really doesn't matter what you get after that--cash is good to finance the exploratory phase. Just don't give up on exploration. A slight 4-5 turn delay in founding the capitol is worth it. It really isn't necessary at this level to have a contiguous empire
2. Research the two starting techs you don't begin with and target civil service not alphabet.
3. A modest level of AI aggression, have your war-making done by no later than 1800 BC. (This also works at marathon speed.)
4. On this map, sailing is worth more than iron working but you won't research it if you don't have to. Reason: see #3 above, notice the river nature and "Hey, there's no jungle around me.")
5. Settle a city or two around the capitol. Harness what you have.
6. Settle as many jungle cities as you deem necessary and get those workers out.
7. Step on the pedal and launch the ship.

The other points you made are interesting since I am contemplating Roosevelt and attempting a 1450 ADish win with him. Main reason: American leaders often get dismissed. Analysis: if he built everything Darius did he gets a production bonus one building (forge) and wonders plus a 20% kick on another. Downside: he's not financial and may need a corporate approach to compensate thereby losing some of his production advantage in the form of 7 banks and Wall Street. Still, I think he is seriously underrated for space games just not quite fast enough.

Edit: an optimum strategy is not possible at any level unless randomness is eliminated everywhere: huts, barbs, events, combat etc. I can say with 99% certainty that if you played the map I did you will acheive a better result (~2-5 turns) than I due to better luck across the board. And that's the problem. The very nature of the HoF is that you will be playing a different map. That is the single most random aspect that needs to be addressed. I am a pragmatist. I know that you will be playing a different map. I choose to play out maps that not only have zip but cater to poor luck as well. That is I expect you will have better luck than me, but is your map better than mine? Developing optimum strategy when different maps are being played out is impossible. Therefore I pay homage to the gods of pragmatism.

 

[iggymnrr]

I had 14 cities, most in great locations. Didn't get great early hut luck, but, eventually, I think I found 5 or 6 settlers. Some had to go 20 turns to get back to my building area. But, my cities ended up monsters, many reaching size 30, and nearly all the rest 20-30.

You had better settler luck than I did. I got only 4 and lost one in war. The other 3 were invested in AI capitols. Had you invested in only 2 AI capitols ... well the game would have been easier. It really isn't necessary at this level to have a contiguous empire. It's also probable you tried to build too many buildings, something that takes time to learn when not to do it. Or, perhaps, you did not whip enough.

 

[billybgame]

You had better settler luck than I did. I got only 4 and lost one in war. The other 3 were invested in AI capitols. Had you invested in only 2 AI capitols ... well the game would have been easier. It really isn't necessary at this level to have a contiguous empire. It's also probable you tried to build too many buildings, something that takes time to learn when not to do it. Or, perhaps, you did not whip enough.

Even though I'm a Prince level player, maybe I have a lot to learn on Whipping. I just don't do it. Not sure I see the benefit. How does that help you in this game? I already had many times I had trouble deciding what to build in many cities. I can understand it in domination or conquest, where you're in a race vs better defenders.

I haven't read all the posts here, but did see some mention of putting settlers right next to other capitols. Explain please? Is this some sort of gimmick? I don't get it.

I had awesome city sites....didn't get stuck in a corner, and actually had some areas with shield capabilities. And, many with tons of food resources so I could build lots of workshops. 14 great cities isn't too far off 17. And, much quicker settlement of them would stifle research. What do I not understand?

But, I must be missing gimmicks, because I doubt I've ever done a spaceship win before 1700, maybe even 1800.

Edit: A few more details. I had 10 rice and did Cereal Mills. Also spent nearly 60 consecutive years of Golden Age in Medieval/Renaissance eras.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Settling next to a capital means you can build 2 or 3 warriors and take it over. Capitals are always nice sites with no jungle and food + fresh water.

Whip cities to build libraries and such. Once you have whipped enough stuff, build cottages and workshops.

 

[iggymnrr]

Even though I'm a Prince level player, maybe I have a lot to learn on Whipping. I just don't do it. Not sure I see the benefit. How does that help you in this game? I already had many times I had trouble deciding what to build in many cities. I can understand it in domination or conquest, where you're in a race vs better defenders.

I haven't read all the posts here, but did see some mention of putting settlers right next to other capitols. Explain please? Is this some sort of gimmick? I don't get it.

I had awesome city sites....didn't get stuck in a corner, and actually had some areas with shield capabilities. And, many with tons of food resources so I could build lots of workshops. 14 great cities isn't too far off 17. And, much quicker settlement of them would stifle research. What do I not understand?

But, I must be missing gimmicks, because I doubt I've ever done a spaceship win before 1700, maybe even 1800.

Edit: A few more details. I had 10 rice and did Cereal Mills. Also spent nearly 60 consecutive years of Golden Age in Medieval/Renaissance eras.

Congrats on 5 golden ages! No doubt you built 7 colosseums for 1 of them? This a nice quest to accomplish but it will have an impact on how fast you get to space. For purposes of this gauntlet it will not help, but will not hurt your stated goal of 1800 AD. The timing of your golden ages could be better and, perhaps, usage of GPs as well. For practical purposes, let's assume you do not get the quest in your next game. When should golden ages be triggered and how will you use your GPs? Try for one early-to-mid game for civic changes so no time is lost, Taj Mahal for another civic change and one late for building the ship. A fourth one may be available to use whenever it seems best. Generate about 4 early scientists. Use one for an academy in your bureaucratic capitol. Since you have never broken 1800 AD I'd recommend using another scientist for a second academy in a city that can support 8+ riverside cottages and 2 food resources, preferably an AI capitol. It will be difficult to build in this city. If you don't like micromanging too much make this second science city the one you keep a close eye on. Concentrate on science, hammer and health buildings no markets or banks (grocer is okay.) Keep one worker here round the clock, two if possible. Also have a couple of workshops or mines around to help with hammers and whipping. Growth and whip anger will be a problem and whipping gets tricky but it will be good learning experience. Don't worry too much if you have to whip 1 cottage and 1 food tile each time as long as the city keeps growing onto cottages it will be fine. There are only two buildings where I would whip away more than 1 cottage (2 or 3) a university and levee. Once the levee is done so is whipping. If you get a levee in this city before 1000 AD that is an accomplishment. (I did this in the BCs and, when state property came around, water-wheeled one of the foods.) The other two scientists can be used for bulbs. After that who knows?

Try using a settler and settle close to an AI around turn 15-20. Build 4 warriors and rush. (4 is too many but it will give you peace of mind.) Otherwise aim for around 8 cities by 1AD, preferably not in jungle areas. Develope them for awhile. Put extra settlers on ice. Around 700AD or so spam settlers into jungle sites and get tons of workers out. Perhaps aim for state property with a financial leader or corps otherwise. If you use state property don't be afraid to waterwheel rice or bananas etc. Get lots of workers out.

You got 6 settlers!!! You know how to to explore the map!

 

[Dynamic]

1800AD on Settler... It looks like you found not enough cities, build all possible things in your cities but too few Workers and automate them.