G-Minor CI

[Zlither]

This gauntlet seems to have clearly pointed out where my game play is weak - towards the end. This seems to mirror what I've suspected in other non-OCC gauntlets as well.

In this gauntlet, with a decent (but not phenomenal) start, I can get 65-70 edu, ~~100PP, ~~125(?) radio - but still don't launch until ~220+++.

By EDU, in this gauntlet:
lots of farms
food focus is set.
usually use oxford for radio (sometime for plastics)
planted 3 GS'es (also tried 4)
usually have all 4 of: GL, ToA, HG, StoneHenge
allied as many as possible, if not all, Maritime CSs
gotten WLTK days when possible (some bad luck here)
rush buy almost all of Univ/Observ/... (sometime I rush buy water mill instead)
...

I've usually in the past gone for plastics after radio, and tried that several times in this gauntlet. Have also tried getting quick Fertilizer and/or Biology to keep up grown, then on to plastics. After that, onto Hubble. Max I've gotten is 3400beaker/scientist bulb.

This is probably too vague, but if anyone has hints, it would be appreciated.

BTW: as an aside: I suggest taking Syria out of the list of countries, as they often go for an early ToA (I presume for the ranged bonus).
BTW^2: there was once a discussion about all the food generating benefits (religion, ToA, … ) and if I remember correctly, some of them are computed far different than others, so there is a good order. Does anyone know where this conversation is?

ie: is it better to build ToA first for the compounding, or HG for the quick growth, ...

 

[zenmaster]

Excellent post, zenmaster. Very good idea to make a summary like this, since all the useful information is often scattered across multiple pages of the gauntlet threads. Looking forward to reading more of your guides!
Ironworks is a must-have in my opinion, it costs 103 hammers to build and provides 8 hammers per turn, so it pays for itself very quickly.

You may want to add some information about the gold needed to purchase the SS parts to your post. It was 1350 per part with Big Ben and Mercantilism right? Did you build Big Ben in your game at all?

Thanks for the input. Edited the last post to reflect that. I had mentioned the gold needed in a previous post but forgot to transfer it. I did build Big Ben but it slipped my mind when posting. The game seems to come easier with experience but there are a lot of moving parts to remember! At some point I had written down parts cost with/without Big Ben and commerce policy for the different speeds because in higher levels, building Big Ben is not guaranteed. Couldn't find it in time to refer to it.

Yes, you are right about Ironworks. It feels weird building it though sometimes. In the games you need it most it takes a long time to build, and other vital things are looming impatiently in your build queue while Ironworks is under construction [emoji4] .

@Bleidraner - interesting you previously mentioned the need to calculate-- despite looking at all the necessary faith/gold figures in my post, the only thing I think I actually calculate in-game is the science bulbs at some point in the late game if I want to bulb GS and build Apollo /Hubble optimally. The rest is ballpark figuring with round numbers once in awhile. If I am shooting for a T180 victory and know I need 8000 or so gold by then. I will look at my gold/turn once in awhile and roughly multiply by the # of turns left until 180 to see how I am doing. Same with faith. If the rough figure falls far short of the goal, it is a call to action!

 

[zenmaster]

This gauntlet seems to have clearly pointed out where my game play is weak - towards the end. This seems to mirror what I've suspected in other non-OCC gauntlets as well.

In this gauntlet, with a decent (but not phenomenal) start, I can get 65-70 edu, ~~100PP, ~~125(?) radio - but still don't launch until ~220+++.

By EDU, in this gauntlet:
lots of farms
food focus is set.
usually use oxford for radio (sometime for plastics)
planted 3 GS'es (also tried 4)
usually have all 4 of: GL, ToA, HG, StoneHenge
allied as many as possible, if not all, Maritime CSs
gotten WLTK days when possible (some bad luck here)
rush buy almost all of Univ/Observ/... (sometime I rush buy water mill instead)
...

I've usually in the past gone for plastics after radio, and tried that several times in this gauntlet. Have also tried getting quick Fertilizer and/or Biology to keep up grown, then on to plastics. After that, onto Hubble. Max I've gotten is 3400beaker/scientist bulb.

This is probably too vague, but if anyone has hints, it would be appreciated.

BTW: as an aside: I suggest taking Syria out of the list of countries, as they often go for an early ToA (I presume for the ranged bonus).
BTW^2: there was once a discussion about all the food generating benefits (religion, ToA, … ) and if I remember correctly, some of them are computed far different than others, so there is a good order. Does anyone know where this conversation is?

ie: is it better to build ToA first for the compounding, or HG for the quick growth, ...

Good point about Assyria. They were helpful in my game but I can see them building a much too early ToArtemis.

As for ToA vs Hanging Gardens, in this OCC I think building HG first is a no-brainer for optimal growth if you have the tech. I don't think you will have 60 surplus food at that point to make ToA a better deal. The danger is an AI builds it first as ToA is highly random as to when AI builds it, but the odds are low on Chieftain. Actually I think I may have built ToA first though for that reason in my tries.[emoji4] The decision is much different in non OCC games and I think it is accepted ToA is far superior.

It looks like you are playing well. Without knowing anything else, I think your lands and policies may not be doing everything you want them to. In this one, your tiles really need to be special to hit under T200 launch-- Petra desert, wheat, bananas, salt, lots of river tiles, jungle for science bonus and 2 food etc. Optimal play cannot make up for subpar land unfortunately. As for policies, are you finishing Tradition ASAP and starting Rationalism and getting its best 3 policies ASAP? Those help immensely.

Good luck if you are trying again.

 

[zenmaster]

Also I think I realized why I can't seem to get a great map like you all are showing, I'm a sucker for other lesser maps. I just finished one with 7 workable gold, 4 of those desert hills. Really fun to play, gold out the essass, but not enough growth and thus ultimately science.

Haha. I think just about everyone can't resist interesting maps, even if not ideal Cromagnus has mentioned the same tendency many times. I am the exact same way in all the other victory types. I have learned to resist temptation on the Science games though as your capital terrain has such huge impact on the eventual outcome.

Also, like Bleidraner has often stated, I feel like I am always learning too. You, Mesix, Zlither, and everyone else on this thread have all pointed out things I would never have thought of that can improve and give me options in my play, making things more fun. I am trying not to come off as didactic in my posts; many people play much better than I do in different facets of the game. I just have picked up a lot of experience and communal wisdom through these gauntlets and am trying to share. I will have my posts tightened up in coming gauntlets.

 

[Bleidraner]

Haha. I think just about everyone can't resist interesting maps, even if not ideal Cromagnus has mentioned the same tendency many times. I am the exact same way in all the other victory types. I have learned to resist temptation on the Science games though as your capital terrain has such huge impact on the eventual outcome.

Specially OCC. I did not find rerolling specially onerous on this gauntlet, maybe I was lucky. I think the fact that you only care about 1 spot, not 4, and that what you are looking for is just great food tiles with desert or jungle, not luxes makes a difference. That and the fact that you can choose the ruins means I rolled maybe 100-120 maps and played through 4 complete games. Fractal sucks for rerolling but you can see very quickly if you are on a small island, I only played through what felt like continents or a Pangea, and I was always right.

@Zlither: your Edu benchmark is REALLY good for a not phenomenal map but the others get increasingly worse for record time, true. Maybe if you pick up one of the games and drop me the saves at Initial, Edu, t100, t130 I can have a look and see if I can help. Prepare for a wall of text though.

 

[vadalaz]

As for ToA vs Hanging Gardens, in this OCC I think building HG first is a no-brainer for optimal growth if you have the tech. I don't think you will have 60 surplus food at that point to make ToA a better deal.

ToA adds 10% to all the food, not just surplus. As far as I know, it's the only food % bonus that works like that, and that makes it a powerful wonder. In non-OCC games it's not rare to have 150+ food across your empire shortly after hitting Civil Service, so ToA would add 15 more, like 3 caravans.

You're right that HG first is better here though. You can either check demographics or the city menu for the total food the city's generating, and it'll most likely be less than 60 at the time you're making the choice between ToA and HG, unless you have a sick Sun God start or something.

Yes, you are right about Ironworks. It feels weird building it though sometimes. In the games you need it most it takes a long time to build, and other vital things are looming impatiently in your build queue while Ironworks is under construction [emoji4] .

Indeed. Personally I try to build it right before LToP, and I tell myself that it'll mostly pay for itself by the time I finish that (in OCC). Makes it an easier decision.

 

[Bleidraner]

@Bleidraner - interesting you previously mentioned the need to calculate-- despite looking at all the necessary faith/gold figures in my post, the only thing I think I actually calculate in-game is the science bulbs at some point in the late game if I want to bulb GS and build Apollo /Hubble optimally. The rest is ballpark figuring with round numbers once in awhile. If I am shooting for a T180 victory and know I need 8000 or so gold by then. I will look at my gold/turn once in awhile and roughly multiply by the # of turns left until 180 to see how I am doing. Same with faith. If the rough figure falls far short of the goal, it is a call to action!

Yes that's what I meant. Rough calculations at the long horizon time scale, exact calculations for the next 15-20 turns. I calculate faith, food, GPP, hammers and culture specially and with as much exactitude as I can get, gold and happiness no so much on this gauntlet after I realized they are not really an issue. I also calculate beakers long term, specially after t130, to get a rough idea of what my bulbs will look like. In this game, bulbs have very few variables, so I built a spreadsheet with input fields which allowed me to bulb EXACTLY what I needed.

 

[Zlither]

As for policies, are you finishing Tradition ASAP and starting Rationalism and getting its best 3 policies ASAP? Those help immensely.

Thanks to you and B for the comments!

Tradition, with the final tier food one before the 15%wonder/happiness ones;
1-3 in commerce, until Rationalism opens up.
Try to time Oracle (on this lvl of difficulty) to occur just after Rat. Take one of left, then the two on right.
Then go for Patronage to the science bonus one.

For ruins:
if first ruin before ~~turn 8, use it for culture to drastically speed that up
else: cycle between 1+ citizens, new tech, upgrade unit, depending upon how long 'til the next natural pop growth.
I've found having the upgraded units makes it much easier to find more ruins & not be slowed down by barbs & to pick off workers.
If none of the 3, pick $, to buy WaterMill/Univ

Thanks again,
-z

 

[Bleidraner]

Thanks to you and B for the comments!

Tradition, with the final tier food one before the 15%wonder/happiness ones;
1-3 in commerce, until Rationalism opens up.
Try to time Oracle (on this lvl of difficulty) to occur just after Rat. Take one of left, then the two on right.
Then go for Patronage to the science bonus one.

For ruins:
if first ruin before ~~turn 8, use it for culture to drastically speed that up
else: cycle between 1+ citizens, new tech, upgrade unit, depending upon how long 'til the next natural pop growth.
I've found having the upgraded units makes it much easier to find more ruins & not be slowed down by barbs & to pick off workers.
If none of the 3, pick $, to buy WaterMill/Univ

Thanks again,
-z

I see your point on the upgrade, but I always pick culture first and then cycle through culture again on the 4th ruin. This speeds up the 4th policy, growth, and most importantly the Trad finisher for the free aqueduct, which is huge for growth. Basically in this gauntlet growth before anything.

On the policies, I go Patronage first as it speeds up all important religious and maritime alliances. In many cases I even go consulates first then 2 on left side (of course the first 4 policies in Rati are absolute first priority, as soon as you can and yes with Oracle). I do mercantilism after I get to New Deal in Freedom. The reason I do the 3 in Patronage first is that all three policies are immediately useful, as your priority at that time of the game is to ally as fast as possible for the food and the faith and of course because you have to pass Science Funding on the first vote. Compared to Mercantilism, where the first policy is useful, landsnechts are useless in this gauntlet and the third is useful for rush buying the expensive buildings, but that need comes late in the game. Although I can see going Commerce first working, using the extra money to pay CSs, but I prefer Patronage.

As for your Trad opening, just to confirm that you are beelining the growth policy, then wonder help, then close with the happiness one.

 

[Mesix]

For ruins:
if first ruin before ~~turn 8, use it for culture to drastically speed that up
else: cycle between 1+ citizens, new tech, upgrade unit, depending upon how long 'til the next natural pop growth.
I've found having the upgraded units makes it much easier to find more ruins & not be slowed down by barbs & to pick off workers.
If none of the 3, pick $, to buy WaterMill/Univ

I would recommend to always take a free tech with the first ruin. You want as many free techs as you can get, and taking a free tech with the first ruin means that it will come up as an option again sooner (you have to wait 3 ruins for it to pop up again). You only really want one culture ruin, and you should get minimum 3-4 ruins if you are scouting well and building more Pathfinder right away. Getting the tradition opener a few turns earlier will not make as big of a difference as one additional free tech early will (especially if you get a 2nd tier tech like writing out of ruin #4).

My recommendation for ruins (up to 7 if you are lucky to find this many):

free tech
culture
+1 population
free tech
faith or gold (situational)
+1 population
free tech

You should be able to find some ruins on small islands later in the game. Use these to upgrade your pathfinders instead of the more critical early ruins that you find near your capital.

It is also good to let the barbarians harass the CS a bit so that you get quests, and potentially workers to return or even AI settlers to enslave as workers.

 

[zenmaster]

I would recommend to always take a free tech with the first ruin. You want as many free techs as you can get, and taking a free tech with the first ruin means that it will come up as an option again sooner (you have to wait 3 ruins for it to pop up again). You only really want one culture ruin, and you should get minimum 3-4 ruins if you are scouting well and building more Pathfinder right away. Getting the tradition opener a few turns earlier will not make as big of a difference as one additional free tech early will (especially if you get a 2nd tier tech like writing out of ruin #4).

My recommendation for ruins (up to 7 if you are lucky to find this many):

free tech
culture
+1 population
free tech
faith or gold (situational)
+1 population
free tech

You should be able to find some ruins on small islands later in the game. Use these to upgrade your pathfinders instead of the more critical early ruins that you find near your capital.

It is also good to let the barbarians harass the CS a bit so that you get quests, and potentially workers to return or even AI settlers to enslave as workers.

I think this is a great approach but I would be careful on the free techs. If you get the first ruin immediately or when pottery is done, great, but if you take a free tech with pottery half or mostly researched it almost always comes up pottery and you've wasted a bunch of turns of research. I usually end up going culture first and free tech 2nd because of this as pottery is done and you can get writing or calendar or sailing from the ruin sometimes

 

[Bleidraner]

I would recommend to always take a free tech with the first ruin. You want as many free techs as you can get, and taking a free tech with the first ruin means that it will come up as an option again sooner (you have to wait 3 ruins for it to pop up again). You only really want one culture ruin, and you should get minimum 3-4 ruins if you are scouting well and building more Pathfinder right away. Getting the tradition opener a few turns earlier will not make as big of a difference as one additional free tech early will (especially if you get a 2nd tier tech like writing out of ruin #4).

My recommendation for ruins (up to 7 if you are lucky to find this many):

free tech
culture
+1 population
free tech
faith or gold (situational)
+1 population
free tech

You should be able to find some ruins on small islands later in the game. Use these to upgrade your pathfinders instead of the more critical early ruins that you find near your capital.

It is also good to let the barbarians harass the CS a bit so that you get quests, and potentially workers to return or even AI settlers to enslave as workers.

This is good advice from Mesix. But I do it differently. I do culture first for 2 reasons. I usually pop the first ruin while still looking for the perfect spot to settle, so culture is the only good one available. The other reason is that getting to the growth policy and then aqueducts, even wonder help 4-5 turns earlier is huge for the kind of game that I play at the start. The second culture ruin, that is more situational, the benefit is not great, maybe 2 turns, so if faith is available then faith if not maybe gold, but I usually choose culture. A tech earlier does not really benefit me much as the build queue is very busy with the 2 pathfinders and the granary and after that is constant wonder spamming and if I still don't have writing, I start ToA. Getting a 3rd tech is great I agree but there is no guarantee that you will get a 7th ruin and if you do get it, I prefer faith. Or pop.

 

[Smirk]

free tech
culture
+1 population
free tech
faith or gold (situational)
+1 population
free tech

This is about my cycle with huts.

If I can time the pop for the turn I've grown naturally I do so. Also if I get a ruin the turn I settle I generally get the pop.
Also, as has been mentioned, opening pottery and potentially getting any of the tier 2s seems a good idea.


My problem with both the faith and culture is that you get very little. I guess if you haven't started to get any faith once the faith hut option appears (after turn 20?) it might be worth it.

I've always been trying to get an upgrade after the first tech and pop. I calculate this is ultimately worth about 200-300 gold, as you can immediately get some tribute from CSs. This is really handy if the CS starts with some stupid quests, like great admiral. I do this to any CS that isn't maritime as I won't be needing them as allies for at least 20-40 turns. In fact I most often use this to gold to gift to a maritime CS.
Also, xbows can make short work of any camps, and if that turns into CS favor it will account for a lot more effective gold than just a pure tribute.

 

[Bleidraner]

I've always been trying to get an upgrade after the first tech and pop. I calculate this is ultimately worth about 200-300 gold, as you can immediately get some tribute from CSs. This is really handy if the CS starts with some stupid quests, like great admiral. I do this to any CS that isn't maritime as I won't be needing them as allies for at least 20-40 turns. In fact I most often use this to gold to gift to a maritime CS.
Also, xbows can make short work of any camps, and if that turns into CS favor it will account for a lot more effective gold than just a pure tribute.

Um. That is actually a great idea. I have not been playing the tribute game, and I seem to remember tributes are very powerful on quick. Great tip. Rush buy your market or a caravan or even the workshop. A CB would be enough too. Um.

 

[zenmaster]

Yes that's what I meant. Rough calculations at the long horizon time scale, exact calculations for the next 15-20 turns. I calculate faith, food, GPP, hammers and culture specially and with as much exactitude as I can get, gold and happiness no so much on this gauntlet after I realized they are not really an issue. I also calculate beakers long term, specially after t130, to get a rough idea of what my bulbs will look like. In this game, bulbs have very few variables, so I built a spreadsheet with input fields which allowed me to bulb EXACTLY what I needed.

You are amazing. With a better map, you and vadalaz might both go under T170 on this one!

 

[Bleidraner]

You are amazing. With a better map, you and vadalaz might both go under T170 on this one!

Thank you Zenmaster, but the reality is that both you and Vadalaz are superior players. There will be the odd gauntlet like this one where I have time to submit 3-4 games, and where the designated VC is good for me (SV, Diplo), and through repetition I can learn the optimal strategies and tactics, and on those gauntlets I will get closer, even beat one or both but I have no chance under normal circumstances. I learn fast though.

Been meaning to tell you guys, lately I have not had time to play much. This does not mean that I am giving up on HOF gauntlets, but I find I have to choose what I play. I can play maybe 1 long game per month and 3-4 short fast games, like this gauntlet. I am focusing on SV as I think I am getting better at that, have had a couple of amazing results lately, and my diplo is already very strong, so it is likely that I will play gauntlets with those Victory conditions.

 

[zenmaster]

Thank you Zenmaster, but the reality is that both you and Vadalaz are superior players. There will be the odd gauntlet like this one where I have time to submit 3-4 games, and where the designated VC is good for me (SV, Diplo), and through repetition I can learn the optimal strategies and tactics, and on those gauntlets I will get closer, even beat one or both but I have no chance under normal circumstances. I learn fast though.

Been meaning to tell you guys, lately I have not had time to play much. This does not mean that I am giving up on HOF gauntlets, but I find I have to choose what I play. I can play maybe 1 long game per month and 3-4 short fast games, like this gauntlet. I am focusing on SV as I think I am getting better at that, have had a couple of amazing results lately, and my diplo is already very strong, so it is likely that I will play gauntlets with those Victory conditions.

Don't slight yourself as a domination player-- Gold medalling an Emperor domination game is no easy task. If they are quick enough, you should at least roll up a couple maps to try your hand.

Those warlike diplomacy games would be the long ones each month, I think [emoji6] . They are like domination games where you have to wipe out civs, try to do science as fast as a science victory game, and have a build queue with a time bomb ticking away on a bunch of builds. You are great at those, but those always go at a glacial pace for me. I like them, but don't commit to them lightly. As the gauntlets have deadlines, I will most commonly give them a pass if I don't have time to commit to a decent try and circle back to them later if interesting.

Glad you have been checking into the forums if not playing as much.

 

[Denniz]

Gauntlet Results:
G-Minor CI - Science, Chieftain, Standard, Fractal, Quick, Shoshone (Pocatello) (check options)
[

1st zenmaster - 1740 AD T-173

2nd vadalaz - 1770 AD T-179

3rd Bleidraner - 1780 AD 181

Congratulations!

 

[Bleidraner]

Gauntlet Results:
G-Minor CI - Science, Chieftain, Standard, Fractal, Quick, Shoshone (Pocatello) (check options)

1st vadalaz - 1740 AD T-173

2nd zenmaster - 1770 AD T-179

3rd Bleidraner - 1780 AD 181

Congratulations!

Denniz, I have the feeling you have Zenmaster and Vadalaz the wrong way round. Zenmaster should be first and Vadalaz second.

 

[Mesix]

Congrats to the winners (and indeed anyone who finished in under 200 turns). Amazing effort!

I finished 8th and according to the update had the highest score. Curious what may have been the decisive factor in score. Perhaps I built more wonders? Had more social policies? More techs?