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G-Minor LXXII

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Peets, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Peets

    Peets Emperor Hall of Fame Staff

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    Location:
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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

    Settings:
    • Expansion: Brave New World
    • Victory Condition: Diplomacy (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Warlord
    • Map Size: Large
    • Map Type: Great Plains Plus
    • Speed: Standard
    • Leader: Shoshone (Pocatello)
    • Opponents: Any
    • Version: SV8
    • Date: 1st to 16th March 2014
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
     
  2. Lucarius

    Lucarius Chieftain

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    Wondering how fast people are going to beat this.
     
  3. Lucarius

    Lucarius Chieftain

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    My first game ended turn 359, and since I haven't played for a long time, I'm guessing we're talking turn 250-270 or something.
     
  4. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Given that it's one landmass and warlord, I'm going to guess somewhere around t200.
     
  5. Xger

    Xger Prince

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    Warlord also means little money from the AI and very piddly RA's, questionable if they are even worth it.
     
  6. casualplayer

    casualplayer Warlord

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    The hardest part so far is getting other civs to finish off civs so that you don't get the super Warmonger penalty and get ostracized. Thanks Montezuma for cleaning up Korea! Now everyone hates you instead of me and I get to be a hero for DoWing you.

    Then you just whittle down to you and one or two civs left and you get the "half the civs are past blah age" which really pushes up the votes. Should have finish times right around Turn 200.
     
  7. klaskeren

    klaskeren Prince

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    only had one diplo win in BNW so far with OCC, and i kind of forget, you need to reach info era for world leader vote right? and how can one optimize so that the world leader vote is ASAP after reaching info era?
     
  8. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Either you reach Info era, or half of civs reach Atomic.
     
  9. klaskeren

    klaskeren Prince

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    yeah but how is the timing with the world congress, it doesnt matter if your reach info 12 turns or 4 turns before the current vote terminates right?
     
  10. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    This isn't OCC.

    You can win in the atomic era if half the (remaining) civs have reached it. On warlord this is the obvious choice. Time your conquest so that before the first vote comes up the world is in the atomic. The next vote will be for world leader.

    It delays the vote by two turns every time you switch eras I think. Otherwise it doesn't matter when the vote happens.
     
  11. zenmaster

    zenmaster King Supporter

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    Never played the Shoshone before, so I decided to intentionally go Great Library, 1 city Nat. College before quick expansion and a march to Sci Theory then Artillery path before marching to conquest. Though it will not be near a winning time, it was a lot more fun. Why?

    The majesty of a swarm of Comanche riders thundering across the barren plains. I was over in the heavily forested East with Boudicca, and everyone else was in the flat Great Plains. The westward sweep across the map was a thing of beauty. Time was T264 but that is an afterthought :).

    My favorite new thing I learned playing the Shoshone? Pathfinders upgrade to Composite Bowmen!
     
  12. Xger

    Xger Prince

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    Is it really going to be faster to wipe out all but 1 other civ on a large map though? It's only 3 more techs to reach the information era. You also want to cross as many eras at once as possible if the world congress is up as the 2 turn transition catches up in eras even if more than 1 passed.
     
  13. klaskeren

    klaskeren Prince

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    ended my first play session here turn 119, because i really don't know if i should go peaceful or war :D, i did kinda odd build up, going 6 cities instead of usual 4, but has worked out nicely so far. When i started, i hadn't even considered the war approach, but maybe its viable? Would love to hear more opinions about peace vs war approach.
     
  14. Xger

    Xger Prince

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    Well, wiping out 8 civs means 8 puppets which is going to be a 40% increase in science costs to skip 3 techs. I'm leaning toward not going for war.
     
  15. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    The difference between war and peace is that going from Printing Press to the Atomic Era within 30 turns is *much* easier than going from Printing press to Info Era in 30 turns. So if you want to win in the first possible leader vote, it's really IMHO the only way. However, it's definitely not easy *at all*. You have to *also* be allies with all 20 CS... by the first world leader vote. This is to say the least hard, especially if you've had to go to war while focusing on science... it's a lot of juggling.

    But, if someone does manage to do it, they will win the g-minor for sure. /shrug.
     
  16. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Yes, each era change inserts a 2 turn delay on the next proposal vote, but you should still aim to hit the info era or arrange for half the civs to hit the atomic era (i.e., you eliminate all but one civ and you hit atomic) at least 2 turns before the current proposal vote in order to ensure that the first vote after that proposal vote is the World Leader vote. If you trigger the WL threshold after that point (i.e., on the turn before the proposal vote or on the same turn as the proposal vote), you have to go through the next round of proposal voting before the WL vote will be held.
     
  17. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Ah right, good point. Is it actually 2 or actually 3 turns? IE if you have one turn remaining on the tech when voting is 3 turns away, you complete the tech at the beginning of the next turn, and boom you're in the atomic era with 2 turns left. Then, on the next turn it should trigger a new host vote, with 1 turn remaining, and that would be too late, right?

    I'll be making sure to hit the atomic era with 3 turns remaining just in case. ;-)

    So, here are some thoughts on the warpath option. (vs peaceful)

    I'm debating how early to start the warpath. I'm thinking that due to how easy early-game warfare is on Warlord, and how late the AI will get universities, it may be best to go conquer the world (all except for one civ) semi-early. The problem is when?

    Normally when going for CV (on this difficulty level), I'd want to research Education before Machinery, and research as many pre-reqs of Atomic Theory (or Penicillin) as possible before Printing Press, to ensure I hit the Atomic within 30 turns. (Although, this is only helpful to a certain point... if you delay hitting the atomic era too much by delaying sci theory, eventually the turn you get it is late enough that you'd have been better off targeting the second world congress vote instead and shooting for the Info Era. If that makes sense. At some point you haven't saved any time. First dilemma.

    Also, given that I want to be on the warpath as well, I would normally tech Machinery before Education. So that's my second dilemna. However, since it's Warlord, I can probably get away with researching Education before Machinery, and still take over the world with cbs/xbs even if I don't get Machinery until like t125. But, is it worth waiting that long? The AI probably won't even have universities by then, and the capitals I'm capturing will hurt happiness (costing me 10% science from Rationalism) and increase cost of the next tech without contributing beakers until they come out of rebellion.

    Maybe I want to just take over the world with archers/cbs... but taking out 8 civs by t100ish... that's a lot of unhappiness, so that would work best with only building one city... maybe two. But still, 9-10 cities by t100 smells like an unworkable amount of unhappiness... I'd have to slow down my rampage to wait for rebellion and courthouses at some point...

    So, Machinery sounds better. But the problem is the lack of quality city attack options between Machinery and Artillery. Another option is Sci Theory -> Industrialization for gatlings. That would really only work if I leveled up some CBs to get logistics though. The AI will have weak capitals, but not *so* weak that unpromoted Gatlings are good enough on t150 to wipe out 8 civs in the 20 or so turns you'll have after Industrialization. Maybe if you bulbed some GS *immediately* after Printing Press to boost you through Industrialization. Too bad Comanche Riders is off the tech path for Diplo.

    Artillery is out, because by then you're *definitely* not going to take over the world in time for the first world leader vote.

    So, really, it's either start the attack run with archers and finish with cbs, annex as you go, and deal with the science delay that brings, or it's start with xbs and finish with gatlings, hoping that the cities you capture have universities and/or coliseums, etc., hoping that ideology saves you in the middle, etc.

    And this doesn't even begin to cover the challenge of allying 20 CS by t200 on top of all this. I may have just talked myself out of a warpath solution on large maps...

    If you're not going to win in the Atomic Era on the first vote, it's probably better to go (mostly) peaceful and win in the Info Era on the second vote.

    I'll give it one try going for the warpath. If it slows down research by even 30 turns though, it's not actually faster than the peaceful option. So, I don't have high hopes. The difference between standard and large here is significant. (IMHO)
     
  18. klaskeren

    klaskeren Prince

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    hmm im afraid i still dont quite get the vote mechanics, so a few questions:

    0. will the first vote always be of duration 30 turns, or can you go into a deeper era, and tech PP later for a shorter vote duration?

    1. The first vote of duration N turns, will this time before the vote decrease as civs enter new eras or will it remain N turns

    2. the vote after the first vote, is it so that the length of this vote is relative to the era at which the previous vote ended, IE the era at which you have to nominate things to vote on.

    3. When world leader vote is eligible, and world leader votes are on alternating votings, is the world leader the first or the second immediatly following the vote from an era which world leader was not eligible.

    4. can someone post a table of vote duration versus current era.
     
  19. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    0. I'm not sure how this would help. Entering the Industrial Era through Fertilizer or Archaeology would delay Victory by more than 10 turns, so even if the vote period was 20 turns, it would be a wash.

    1. It's 30 turns + 2 turns for each era change. The first Era change occurs when you enter the Modern (usually), the second when you enter the Atomic. So as was pointed out, doing both in the same turn will save 2 turns, and make it 32 instead of 34. (I think)

    2. I think the first Host vote is always 10 turns after the first Proposal vote. This is just a world congress Host vote until the world enters the Atomic. So if you enter Atomic before the first Proposal vote, it's a World Leader vote.

    So, example 1: You tech Printing Press on t150 and propose World's Fair. On t176 you bulb Modern->Atomic, after wiping out all but one civ. On t182 you vote on World's Fair. On t192 the first World Leader vote occurs.

    Example 2: Same as above, except the world is still in the Modern Era. On t192 there is a host vote. On t200 you finally kill off everyone (or enter Information Era). On t214 (212 + 2 for world entering Atomic) there will be another proposal vote. On t224 there will be a world leader vote.

    Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on the timing.

    This is why if you can't clear the map within 30 turns of teching Printing Press, you're better off going peaceful. If you tech Printing Press on t145, shortly before bulbing sci theory on t150, (for example) you should be able to enter the Information era by t200, triggering a world's leader vote on t211. (t205 + 6, 2 for each era change)

    There may be an additional +2 for each new proposal. I can't recall.
     
  20. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Oh now checking the occ box. That would solve the issues involved with taking 8 capitals... Sneaky. But OCC tech usually is slow, especially if you're fielding an army early. Can't imagine that would be the fastest path to victory... But it would mean only needing to get to the atomic. Hmm.
     

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