G-Minor XCVIII

[Bleidraner]

If I had this start, I probably would've bailed and rerolled by Turn 20. The positioning of Melbourne and Ife is really a problem -- you need more spots for nearby cities. That gives you more Caravan options, quicker + cheaper city connections, more flexibility in shifting your Workers around as needed, and you don't waste time walking Settlers halfway across the map.

Rerolling efficiency is really important if you want to get record times

I completely agree, but I got hooked by t50 and could not leave the game.

 

[vadalaz]

I agree 100%. I did not include it in the step by step as it was too complicated, but I either build the third scout or rush buy it.

On Prince and below I like to get a warrior out as well, or a spearman even. CS tributes can speed up the rush-bought settler, or get you enough cash for a rush-bought worker as well. Alternatively you could demand workers with 2 spearmen, but CSs take forever to grow to pop 4 sometimes. Not sure what they're doing really.

I haven't been replaying this because I can't come up with a strategy that's better than the settle 4, capture 2. The only idea that comes to mind is to get a couple more cities for 2000-2200 beakers after Plastics... but there are some problems with that.

It makes little sense to go wider with Order because you're not going to win much faster than 30 turns after Plastics. 8 turns to get good bulb value, 7-8 turns Apollo, 8-10 turns to get SS parts done, plus add a few turns to manage the bulbs because of the stupid cap. With 1800+bpt/6 cities you can get all the techs in 25-30 turns already, better science won't help because the limiting factor is production. Maybe you can get great hammer overflow and cut down the time to get all SS parts to 5-6 turns in theory, but still.

It does make sense to go super wide with Freedom because the limiting factor is science (assuming you have the gold). You need 8 turns for good bulb value, plus 8-10 for Hubble and Apollo, a couple more to manage bulbs, and that's it. So getting all the techs in 20 turns after Plastics is the goal here. Pretty sure that's doable with 2100+bpt, but getting such an empire up would be pretty difficult. The best thing about Order, imo, is the combination of -33% discount on buildings and fast factories, which allows you to get all the buildings you want (specialist slots, hospitals, hydro plants etc) very, very quickly. 8-city Freedom would be harder to manage I think, especially since you want to have gold to buy SS parts as well. It also might delay Plastics, though maybe you can just bulb an extra GS to get it early enough. Happiness could become a real problem at some point too.

 

[zenmaster]

Overshoot by a GS and a half, and finished Oxford accidentally for Combustion instead of Nanotechnology. Should have been 197-198. Planted 4, annexed 2, had to conquer Seul, unplanned, because I lost ToA to Sejong by t34!

I also lost Stonehenge one turn before completion, lost maybe 2 turns there opportunity cost. I did not burn a GS for Plastics to save 6 turns, very difficult to calculate accurately, should have done it, but easy to say after the fact, not so easy to take the risk then.

I think this may be it for me on this gauntlet. I may do one more try to hit sub200 but Manpanzee's 194 and Vadalaz's 195 are beyond my capabilities I think.

Spoiler :

View attachment 392456

Great game! Accidentally picking the wrong Oxford or Rationalism finisher is always painful, to the tune of a few 1000 beakers usually .

Curious as to why you included Korea in your AI list. He loves to surprise build those science wonders on you at any level seemingly. I used to put Sejong in Immortal/Deity Science Games because he is friendly and I hoped to get good bulb-yielding trade routes from him. I dropped him like a brick after he punked me on the Porcelain Tower like 2-3 games in a row. The pain is that you can't tell on the standard UI if the Ais have opened Rationalism yet if they only have the opener. I finally downloaded the b1 enhanced UI. Maybe that will help .

I played a 4 city peaceful Tradition game just to see how things work in this one and was on track for a T220 or so win with not very careful play. I think Memoryjar nailed it in that you need 5 or 6 cities to hit the 2-oh's or under. Had early enough expansion/Education, but my biggest issue was I went Sun God and was 1 turn late to a Cultural CS barb quest (It took out the camp itself... early!?) so I didn't hit the good Rationalism policies until later than I should have. Religion was later than I would have liked as well. Also screwed myself out of a great scientist with awkward timing I think, so Like memoryjar posited, a well-played 4 city tradition game should be able get a win in the 2teens or under.

The choice of Pantheon (if you have it) on this map is interesting: Sun God and God of the Open Sky (pastures) are obvious choices and give you two very different bonuses. Sun God helps your growth, and immediately if your capital is lucky enough to have wheat. God of the Open Sky gets you to all the key growth/science policies faster. After trying Sun God, I think that unless you have loads of wheat, the Culture Pantheon is the better play. Growth can be juiced with beliefs, faster workers/caravans, maritime CS allies etc. but you have fewer options with culture and they are hammer-intensive, so you are reliant on hitting some good Cultural CS quests to get an early culture boost. Pastures seem more abundant than wheat too on the few maps I have seen.

My AI list was similar to Manpanzee's: Morocco, Netherlands, Sweden (I keep trying... and failing to make friends and get that 10% GP bonus) - but in a nod to memoryjar, I went big money Harun over Austria, and in a nod to chuck I went Enrico over Gandhi or others. Gandhi is always kind of standoffish to me at seemingly every level and difficult to deal with, so I almost never include him. The list worked out pretty well as I got some peace deals early and was able to sell off luxes later for 240 or 7gpt often. I spawned right next to Sweden which makes him unhappy with you from the get-go. Hoping he will be further away so i can get 10% faster Great Scientists sometime.

My next try will be a 2 city National College in an effort to maximize Rome's special ability. With a bit later expansion, the expansion city libraries at least will be 25% quicker. I will also attempt to get at least 1 mounted unit out asap this time. I did well with just archer/warrior/legions on the small map, but missing out on a quest by 1-2 turns can be avoided with faster movement.

Many thanks to all those who have chimed in with tips, thoughts, and recaps.

 

[Bleidraner]

Well as you said he is friendly and he techs fasts (which is irrelevant in this gauntlet, he is a legacy from the Assur gauntlet) I have now taken him out, he is not good. I also put Enrico in Chuck's honor, and he worked out more or less the way Chuck described him, but in my game for the first time ever he got 2 CSs, one of them cultural, so he will be out of my next list. I am putting Sweden and William instead. Interesting thought about Rome's UA, I have completely not paid it any attention in my games, I will give it some thought.

I have also found out that Sun God < God of the Open Sky in this map, unless you get a 5 caps wheat or something crazy like that.

As for Vadalaz's comment, I cannot think of any better strategy either. Even with 6 cities I had some small happiness issues, with 7-8 it would be much worse. In my next game I will aggressively go for early plastics, in this last game I had it like 170 or so, while I saw Vadalaz had it at 156. I caught up a little bit later as I won in 30 turns after Plastics, but to get a 180s win, you have to hit Plastics at t150, which means a PP in the 120s, and I cannot see how I can do that. My limiting factor is early money for Unis and Schools, I have not been playing the tribute game and will try that in the next game. I have also been opening Liberty for Pyramids after closing Tradition and putting one in Commerce, I wonder whether Patronage left side would be faster.

Ok I am going to try for a t95 Edu, try for an earlier PP so I can get earlier World's fair, put 5 in Tradition, 3 in Patronage, 3 in commerce and 6 in Freedom. With 6 cities, see what happens.

 

[Bleidraner]

I have a question for you guys. I actually do not understand what they did with the GS bulb, I know they capped it somehow, but I don't know how and what are the practical consequences. Dos it mean you can only bulb one GS per turn for maximum effect? In practical terms, how do I need to bulb if I am in a hurry and I have some cheap techs left?

 

[Manpanzee]

I have a question for you guys. I actually do not understand what they did with the GS bulb, I know they capped it somehow, but I don't know how and what are the practical consequences. Dos it mean you can only bulb one GS per turn for maximum effect? In practical terms, how do I need to bulb if I am in a hurry and I have some cheap techs left?

Here's a thread with some explanation of the current bulbing mechanics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=543701

For the late game, what I try to do is research cheap techs first and then put my bulbs into whatever the available tech is that I need the most beakers for. For example, suppose I have an 8-turn tech and two 7-turn techs. These will probably take a bit more than a Scientist each, given the speed at which late-game science ramps up. I select a tech, put a Scientist into it, switch to another tech, put a Scientist into that, and so on. Then I complete each tech one-by-one over the following turns. This way, I know exactly where all my beakers are going and don't have to think about overflow.

 

[chuckh89]

Here's a thread with some explanation of the current bulbing mechanics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=543701

Thank you, Manpanzee-Good Thread!

I think I know what I am doing now,...??

 

[Bleidraner]

Here's a thread with some explanation of the current bulbing mechanics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=543701

For the late game, what I try to do is research cheap techs first and then put my bulbs into whatever the available tech is that I need the most beakers for. For example, suppose I have an 8-turn tech and two 7-turn techs. These will probably take a bit more than a Scientist each, given the speed at which late-game science ramps up. I select a tech, put a Scientist into it, switch to another tech, put a Scientist into that, and so on. Then I complete each tech one-by-one over the following turns. This way, I know exactly where all my beakers are going and don't have to think about overflow.

He that thread is pretty hard core, but with a little bit of attention and patience it is incredibly helpful. Thank you Manpanzee.

 

[Bleidraner]

Finished 198, 6 cities, 4 planted 2 conquered, but cannot submit as I rage re-loaded on t190 or so when I let Pisa finish by mistake. I was certain there were 2 turns left, but no.

To save the 5 turns from my last try I went for an earlier conquest and annexing, t80ish as opposed to t100, this delayed my Edu a couple of turns (t98) but payed off big time as I was able to make the conquered cities grow at the same pace as the planted ones. I forgot to build Petra though, I had no good Petra city, just some tiles, so I was not paying attention and just forgot about the all important extra trade route until I saw that Morocco had built it The plan to put 3 in patronage did not happen, I was struggling with culture all game, so only managed to put the opener in. Completed Trad and Rati, 6 in freedom, 3 in commerce, actually 4, cheap maintenance close to the end just to get some more money., I ended up with just one policy to spare.

I am saving all my GWs to bulb after winning World's Fair, but I wonder if that is the right thing to do. In this game I struggled with culture yes, so it was necessary, but in the other games I had 2-3 policies to spare. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Mesix]

I am saving all my GWs to bulb after winning World's Fair, but I wonder if that is the right thing to do. In this game I struggled with culture yes, so it was necessary, but in the other games I had 2-3 policies to spare. Any thoughts on this?

Do GW scale to your current rate like GS to ? I thought the GW were fixed when they are generated (although I never tested it). In most games, I am more interested in planting GW, and only burn them in games where I am avoiding tourism or when the game will be very quick.

 

[vadalaz]

Finished 198, 6 cities, 4 planted 2 conquered, but cannot submit as I rage re-loaded on t190 or so when I let Pisa finish by mistake. I was certain there were 2 turns left, but no.

Yeah that's painful. Exactly what happened to me in my game. Always have to finish workers' tasks manually and check what tiles you're growing into to be sure... Messing up Oxford like that is the worst.

GWs do scale like GSs. I like to have Free Thought by the time I hit Modern, so I do burn one often, definitely no more than one though.

I'm playing a 8-city Tradition-Piety experimental game for fun now, 4 self-founded plus 4 captured capitals. Religion-wise, happiness from rivers, Tithe and Pagodas so far, will take 15% food next. It's turn 117 and happiness hasn't been a problem so far, and it doesn't look like it'll be any time soon. I think I've fallen behind too much now though... Still, it's been a fun game. I picked Korea, Babylon, Egypt, Brazil and Netherlands as my opponents, because I wanted to take some wonders for free and the only early wonder that you really have to build yourself is Great Library... Got Stonehenge, Mausoleum, Pyramids and ToA by force. Generating around 50 faith per turn now, I wonder if I can finish this in under 200 turns.

edit: abandoned that game, it wasn't bad but things just weren't clicking, and worst of all I let Arts Funding pass for no reason... Was going to hit Plastics on T170, had ~1000 bpt pre-labs, but the game just felt like it's lagging 10-12 turns behind of where it should be. 8 cities might be the way to go if you can somehow keep a decent pace throughout the early-mid game. Piety is probably a mistake, but keeping the empire happy would've been a huge pain without quick Pagodas. Tradition/Commerce is the way to do it though.

 

[Morcar_olmig]

Finished my first (and most likely only) attempt in this gauntlet.

Start was good - settled on gems, unit upgrade from the ruins and i was able to buy settler already on turn 17 and first food caravan at 41. But then i made mistake and went for 4 city NC (what was really tempting) instead of 3, what costed me 15 to 20 turn for NC - i finished it only at turn 76. Got education at 94. All in all right from the beggining i had been realizing that cap is not very good for growth and that eventually would slow me down. Even having 5 food caravans to Rome didn't bring me really good growth... Hit Plastics only at 168, then miscalculated and finished all the neccesary techs only at 198 with 1GS spare... In the end found myself short in... money+aluminium (and had to sell couple of Hydro plants) and was not able to buy SS parts ASAP! - so it took 6 turn to complete all the SS parts after researching all the neccessary techs - rather slow. Also i wasn't able to get coal at all in this game - every source of those were located outside of everyone's border including all the CS, otherwise i could have gone Order instead of Freedom.

I'm considering now to replay the final part of my game - not for submission of course, but just for myself - i think sub 200 was possible with my setup.

 

[Bleidraner]

Finished my first (and most likely only) attempt in this gauntlet.

Start was good - settled on gems, unit upgrade from the ruins and i was able to buy settler already on turn 17 and first food caravan at 41. But then i made mistake and went for 4 city NC (what was really tempting) instead of 3, what costed me 15 to 20 turn for NC - i finished it only at turn 76. Got education at 94. All in all right from the beggining i had been realizing that cap is not very good for growth and that eventually would slow me down. Even having 5 food caravans to Rome didn't bring me really good growth... Hit Plastics only at 168, then miscalculated and finished all the neccesary techs only at 198 with 1GS spare... In the end found myself short in... money+aluminium (and had to sell couple of Hydro plants) and was not able to buy SS parts ASAP! - so it took 6 turn to complete all the SS parts after researching all the neccessary techs - rather slow. Also i wasn't able to get coal at all in this game - every source of those were located outside of everyone's border including all the CS, otherwise i could have gone Order instead of Freedom.

I'm considering now to replay the final part of my game - not for submission of course, but just for myself - i think sub 200 was possible with my setup.

Great game Morcar, now I have to try again. Awesome that you planted all 4 cities by t41, I usually take until t50. Also your Edu is faster than mine by 4-5 turns, as I waste some hammers/time conquering 2 caps, I need to think about this and see if it really makes sense to do 6 cities instead of 4. But having said that, I have been swimming in money every game after Plastics, and that's probably coming from those 2 extra cities as there is no money penalty for multiple cities, unlike science and culture.

One piece of advice, I see that you kept your Great Musicians - delete them as soon as they spawn, they are costing you 2 gold per turn maintenance and it piles up.

 

[Morcar_olmig]

Great game Morcar, now I have to try again. Awesome that you planted all 4 cities by t41, I usually take until t50. Also your Edu is faster than mine by 4-5 turns, as I waste some hammers/time conquering 2 caps, I need to think about this and see if it really makes sense to do 6 cities instead of 4. But having said that, I have been swimming in money every game after Plastics, and that's probably coming from those 2 extra cities as there is no money penalty for multiple cities, unlike science and culture.

One piece of advice, I see that you kept your Great Musicians - delete them as soon as they spawn, they are costing you 2 gold per turn maintenance and it piles up.

Thanks Bleidraner! In fact i played 6 city game - 4 own and 2 captured (sorry for not very accurate last screenshot - i attach here another one which makes things a lot clearer.)

What comes to money - i think i spent too much on buildings and was late with SEs. I have got around 12500 gold right after completing of Appolo, but i lacked one policy in commerce: 2nd in the right row - so i have to buy SS parts for approx 2500 gold each. After completing that policy parts cost approx 1700 each - that helped me to finish faster...

Thanks for the advice as well... i have been thinking to use those GM when i got opera somewhere what didn't happen eventually I know that effect would be pretty minimal and irrelevant in this particular game, but that's just way of playing i think...

 

[Mesix]

I had another attempt today. I had an amazing location for Rome in the SW corner of the map.

Desert, hill, gold resource, next to both river and mountain. 4 wheat, 2 stone, Wine, Sheep, Iron, and several desert hills. Here is what it looked like on turn 165.

Spoiler :

NC was a bit delayed because I was churning out some early wonders (GL, ToA, Petra, and I was beat to HG by 1 turn). Once Petra was up, I could build wonders in 5-6 turns.

I had 3 cities up by about turn 45, and the 4th city perhaps turn 55. I conquered two capital cities by turn 65 to have 6 cities. I left the captured cities puppets until I finished key national wonders (NC, Ironworks, etc.). Perhaps having puppets is slowing me down?

I didn't build any workers. I stole one from William on turn 23. I stole another by about turn 35 (captured from barbarian camp). I also managed to get 2 settlers from players I was at war with, and another 2 workers when I captured the capitals, so I had 6 workers by turn 65 without spending any on them.

I hit Education at around turn 106.

I bulbed ST on turn 162.

I am on pace to have Plastics after turn 200 and finish on perhaps turn 220-230. Still not a competitive game. This is likely my last attempt before the update.

 

[Morcar_olmig]

I had another attempt today. I had an amazing location for Rome in the SW corner of the map.

Desert, hill, gold resource, next to both river and mountain. 4 wheat, 2 stone, Wine, Sheep, Iron, and several desert hills. Here is what it looked like on turn 165.

Spoiler :

NC was a bit delayed because I was churning out some early wonders (GL, ToA, Petra, and I was beat to HG by 1 turn). Once Petra was up, I could build wonders in 5-6 turns.

I had 3 cities up by about turn 45, and the 4th city perhaps turn 55. I conquered two capital cities by turn 65 to have 6 cities. I left the captured cities puppets until I finished key national wonders (NC, Ironworks, etc.). Perhaps having puppets is slowing me down?

I didn't build any workers. I stole one from William on turn 23. I stole another by about turn 35 (captured from barbarian camp). I also managed to get 2 settlers from players I was at war with, and another 2 workers when I captured the capitals, so I had 6 workers by turn 65 without spending any on them.

I hit Education at around turn 106.

I bulbed ST on turn 162.

I am on pace to have Plastics after turn 200 and finish on perhaps turn 220-230. Still not a competitive game. This is likely my last attempt before the update.

You seem not to use caravans at their maximum - as a result Rome is not that big as it should be. You can easily compare: 3 food caravans = 1,5 HG in early eras, and in late eras it's 1 food caravan is equal to HG (except for the Garden it adds for free).

Having puppets is slowing you down if they don't produce enough beakers to compensate the 5% penalty (what is almost always the case for puppets) - so you should start develop those ASAP if you want they to help you in long term science and commerce and even in WW buildings.

 

[chuckh89]

Well as you said he is friendly and he techs fasts (which is irrelevant in this gauntlet, he is a legacy from the Assur gauntlet) I have now taken him out, he is not good. I also put Enrico in Chuck's honor, and he worked out more or less the way Chuck described him, but in my game for the first time ever he got 2 CSs, one of them cultural, so he will be out of my next list. I am putting Sweden and William instead. Interesting thought about Rome's UA, I have completely not paid it any attention in my games, I will give it some thought.

I know your not listening to me anymore.... But, another good one is Mongolia.

I find that after the first round I am getting "ripped off" on some of my "Peace Deals", getting under 100 gold for a luxury because I already bled everyone dry,....Solution, ask Mongolia for DoW on a CS as part of a "Peace Deal",....I always have extra units around from Military CS that I can get maximum influence boosts from CSs when they ask for assistance with their War effort.


I feel I am right there with everyone, but I think I still stink at bulbing!

I read the "Bulbing" Thread, but still think I might be loosing Science boosts in the vital part of the game.

If someone makes a attempt at this Gauntlet, and feels that they have ideally "Bulbed"....could you PLEASE send me the game saves from the "Bulbing" sequence so a can confirm my technique?.....Thank You!


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[zenmaster]

I feel I am right there with everyone, but I think I still stink at bulbing!

I read the "Bulbing" Thread, but still think I might be loosing Science boosts in the vital part of the game.

If someone makes a attempt at this Gauntlet, and feels that they have ideally "Bulbed"....could you PLEASE send me the game saves from the "Bulbing" sequence so a can confirm my technique?.....Thank You!
-

A simple way to think of it is- (assuming Scholars in Residence WC resolution is not in effect and ignoring the minor modifier for # of civs who know the tech)

when you burn a GScientist to use his power of "Research a tech", the bulbs you earn all go into the tech you are currently researching. Any excess bulbs he generates not needed for that tech will become part of the overflow leading into the next tech. HOWEVER, that excess is capped at the greater of the cost of the current tech or 5 times your current bulb output.

What does this mean in practice? If you are bulbing a tech very late in the tech tree there is almost no chance of your excess getting capped as you should at least have 1000 or so bulbs per turn at that point, and your excess will be extremely unlikely to exceed 5 times your science.

The problem is bulbing techs lower on the tech tree. Late game bulbing something like Navigation will cap your excess assuming your science rate is decent.

Generally, this means that you should try to bulb higher costing techs and naturally research the lower ones on the tree. If the excess bulbs will be more than 5 times your current science output, try not to bulb that tech.

 

[chuckh89]

A simple way to think of it is- (assuming Scholars in Residence WC resolution is not in effect and ignoring the minor modifier for # of civs who know the tech)

when you burn a GScientist to use his power of "Research a tech", the bulbs you earn all go into the tech you are currently researching. Any excess bulbs he generates not needed for that tech will become part of the overflow leading into the next tech. HOWEVER, that excess is capped at the greater of the cost of the current tech or 5 times your current bulb output.

What does this mean in practice? If you are bulbing a tech very late in the tech tree there is almost no chance of your excess getting capped as you should at least have 1000 or so bulbs per turn at that point, and your excess will be extremely unlikely to exceed 5 times your science.

The problem is bulbing techs lower on the tech tree. Late game bulbing something like Navigation will cap your excess assuming your science rate is decent.

Generally, this means that you should try to bulb higher costing techs and naturally research the lower ones on the tree. If the excess bulbs will be more than 5 times your current science output, try not to bulb that tech.

Thanks Zenmaster!

I'm pretty sure I understand, but setting up the Tech tree before the bulbs is where I feel I could be more effective,...
From what your saying, it would be wise to setup Technology, and bulb "Techs" that are just "barely" over.....So, you are getting a upper scale Tech, AND your getting excess...Right?


-

 

[zenmaster]

Thanks Zenmaster!

I'm pretty sure I understand, but setting up the Tech tree before the bulbs is where I feel I could be more effective,...
From what your saying, it would be wise to setup Technology, and bulb "Techs" that are just "barely" over.....So, you are getting a upper scale Tech, AND your getting excess...Right?


-

Exactly! Ideally you are bulbing a tech decently high up in the tree enough that it still gets discovered that turn, but still has a little bit of overflow that lets you discover a lower tech naturally at the start of the next turn. Thus ideally you get 2 techs a turn- a low one at the start and a higher one from burning a GS. It doesn't always work out to that exactly, and at some point you run out of low enough techs, but it lets you burn through as fast as possible w/o losing any excess.