Galley

[datarush]

When I am first able to build galleys they are only able to move along the coast. The computer galleys can go just about anywhere they want, and I can see them do it. Later on when I get a better map of the world the computer players have been all over the place, to places that my galleys can't go to. Does anyone know what's up with this?

 

[History_Buff]

i guess its one of many AI cheats. But at least this one is kinda subtle.

 

[Supercilious]

"What's up"??

The AI cheats like crazy all the time.

AI ocean-going galleys is one of the most absurd cheats. I've spotted them deep in oceans far from even sea tiles long before anyone discovered magnetism or navigation. I've spotted them in places where they could not have gotten unless they were teleported Star Trek style as their civ's world map showed no path to that location!!

Oh yes, I've seen AI galleys even into the 19th century in oceans just before I sank them with my battleship! :crazyeyes

AI cheating stinks. And it encourages players to cheat right back in every way possible. I hate it, and so do lots of us.

 

[Ironikinit]

I have yet to see real evidence that the AI galleys will enter ocean until their Civ gets navigation or magnetism. If anybody cares to upload a saved game where one has, I'd like to see it.

I'm not saying that the AI doesn't have advantages, just not this particular one.

 

[Mr Spice]

I agree with Ironikinit. If datarush is sure about this, I would very much like to see his saved game.

So far I have never, ever seen anything about AI galleys that can not be explained wihin the frame of the game rules.

 

[Beamup]

Ditto. I have watched the AI move its galleys around quite frequently, both with units and with "multi." In EVERY case, they never moved out of coast squares pre-Astronomy. They don't even seem to do the move-out-one-square-then-move-back trick to see a bit more of the map. And while I do see AI galleys in the open ocean, it's ONLY after the discovery of Navigation or Magnetism. At which point your Galleys can do so, too, so it is in no sense cheating! Incorrect documentation, yes. The Civilopedia says Galleys can never cross ocean safely, but they can after Navigation and Magnetism. So that entry should be edited, but that's it.

Oh, and datarush - did the AI perhaps get Astronomy or the Great Lighthouse before you did? This is a totally legitimate way to get your galleys extra freedom.

 

[Moulton]

I have seen them move galleys into and across the ocean squares. I have also seen them sink there. They do seem to have a better chance of survival than I do, but that is subjective.
In my last game I watched a couple of galleys sail all around the continent, in ocean squares, pacing them with a frigate. I had the lighthouse and Magellan, they did not have navigation at that time.
Just prove it, I will save a game, when and if it happens again, and post a picture.

 

[Mr Spice]

Originally posted by Moulton
Just prove it, I will save a game, when and if it happens again, and post a picture.

I am looking forward to it with excitement.

Moulton, you are the first one ever to offer a saved game about this topic. Most others just resume their complaining in another thread. My hat is of to you.

 

[datarush]

OK here's a saved game. I'll keep it up here for a day or so and then delete it since it's not really useful.

If you look at the map, France has a Town (Bayonne) on an island completely surrounded by a minimum of two squares of ocean. I know that because I made this map myself. I designed it that way with the idea that the islands would be 'discovered' later on, thinking of course that no one could get to them early in the game. Later on, France, England and USA all are floating around islands like this. They can't all have Navigation/Astronomy because I would too since I have the Great Library! So besides being way too early in the game, I don't so they shouldn't either.

The fact is the AI cheats like hell. None of them have the advances necessary for them to do what is plainly being done. I suspected this in a previous game but it is obvious here. I have also BTW seen computer Settlers mutate into two workers when the computer decided it didn't have any place to settle! That happened right in front of one of my units. I'm sure it can also tell exactly how many units are in a city without spying, and judge its chances accordingly.

As far as combat is concerned, it certainly is not just based on the relative strengths of the units. There is an ongoing count of some kind being held. Otherwise battles would not always come out the same way every time if you run them in the same sequence, which is what happens in Civ 3. I've tested that several times.

There is a AI cheat overlay to the game that is not reflected anywhere in the supposed unit attributes.

 

[Dirk Aurel]

I believe to have seen this too Mr Spice,Ironikinit.But hey I also believed for a while to have had two GL at once and two GA...I dunno,maybe it´s us ppl,we play for hours and don´t realize that our memory plays tricks on us afterwards.

The first I remember,the second I know for sure;

I too have seen a lone galley on an ocean tile,miles from nowhere,this is some weeks ago but what I can remember is that I was the first to reach Navigation,had just built my first Caravels. Didn´t take it too serious so no screenshots,agree with Moulton here, the AI might (it might) not saying that it has,a better chance of survival than the human player.Sometimes I find the AI having colonized every island,even the ones seperated from the mainland by ocean tiles.

In my last game the English beat me to Great Lighthouse and they really were the only ones to make contact with the Indians, who were a bit northeast of the mainland,just sea tiles in between.But otherwise they didn´t make contact to anyone else, there civ was in the northwest,I was far south from them,the Egyptians were about ten ocean tiles to the east fr me,but noone made contact with them before I did,thanks to Navigation.So both seems possible.


Conclusion;

What would help here would be the good old casualty list,as in Civ1+2,my guess is that the AI will build as many galleys as it takes,am not sure he loses any,but he will keep sending out his ships no matter what.What also seems to be the case is that one or more civs will send out their ships even before they are safe to do so,sometimes they may find another civ,they will then trade world maps,after that they´ll risk anything to cross the ocean tiles.This doesn´t explain the colonised islands though...

 

[Aeson]

With the Lighthouse, Galleys can safely go on sea squares, and have a movement rate of 4. This allows them to cross up to 2 tiles of ocean.

I downloaded the savegame, and took these screenshots after some trading of maps. As you can see there are several crossing points as the French have the Lighthouse. There is a "cheat" involved here though, just not pertaining to Galleys. The AI does know the map without having uncovered it, this is how they made the crossing. Otherwise their Galleys never would have seen that there were safe seas (and coasts) across the ocean tiles. The AI will never move their Galleys into dangerous waters unless they know there is a crossing. You can test this by building the Great Lighthouse, and having your Galleys in sea squares. Even while at war and blocking the AI's Galley crossings they will never attack your Galleys.

 

[Dirk Aurel]

Yep there´s something fishy here (haha get it?Fishy!! ..doh)

Well this is normal,I too keep a lookout for "sea"lanes if they reach too far into the ocean,the chances are good there might be some land over at the other end.My example is about galleys on ocean squares miles from nowhere...

The AI does know the map without having uncovered it, this is how they made the crossing.

Can´t really confirm this,yes I too have the feeling at times that the AI does know where everything is,like resources the AI can´t see yet,but will build a city close to them all the same.Why I can´t confirm this though,is that on my last map the English took their time in searching every sea tile for a way,they found small tundra India but that was it,they did search every sea square though,even the ones leading to nothing,this doesn´t make sense if the AI already knew where to search.

 

[Aeson]

Firaxis has stated that the AI can "see" the map without having to explore it. This doesn't mean that they are programmed to take advantage of that knowlege in all cases. One example is "unseen" resources. I haven't seen any proof that they actively settle these resource locations, but they certainly know when a city site is hiding something of value. I posted a savegame over at Apolyton that seemingly proves this.

About halfway down the page

 

[datarush]

I think that is the only logical explanation for what went on in this scenario. A human player wouldn't have had a clue about the island up there, nor several others that the AI 'finds' later. I studied several other saves and it is plausible for Galleys to get to the islands, it has to be cheating to find the routes to begin with, especially for the player Galleys that can only move 3. For instance one island's closest approach was 1 Sea, 2 Ocean, 1 Coast, so that AI, which could only move 3, had to start in the Sea square (at their coast) and know exactly where it was going. That island BTW was not discovered by the French because it didn't get on my map until I traded maps with the English.

 

[Mr Spice]

The explanation offered by Aeson seems resonable to me. I am truly happy that we finally managed to have a good discussion on this.

Thanks, datarush, for your saved game that made this possible!

 

[Ironikinit]

Originally posted by datarush
The fact is the AI cheats like hell. None of them have the advances necessary for them to do what is plainly being done. I suspected this in a previous game but it is obvious here. I have also BTW seen computer Settlers mutate into two workers when the computer decided it didn't have any place to settle! That happened right in front of one of my units. I'm sure it can also tell exactly how many units are in a city without spying, and judge its chances accordingly.

As far as combat is concerned, it certainly is not just based on the relative strengths of the units. There is an ongoing count of some kind being held. Otherwise battles would not always come out the same way every time if you run them in the same sequence, which is what happens in Civ 3. I've tested that several times.

I hope the galley thing has been explained well enough. As I said, I know the AI gets advantages, but unsinkable galleys aren't one of them. It's important to know what advantages it does get. For instance, barbarian horsemen that shouldn't be able to see undefended cities or workers will bypass my military units to attack pillage the city or destroy the worker. Obviously, the AI sees more than the human player would be able to in that situation.

I had doubts about the AI being able to see resources before they have the required tech, but people have demonstrated that it can. OTOH, people have demonstrated (and my own experience bears it out) that the AI does not receive a combat bonus.

There is a mechanism that people call a saved random seed. If you fight a battle and then reload and fight it again, the result will be the same. There was a similar mechanism in the game Colonization. It's exploitable, BTW. I personally like it because it helps me resist the temptation to reload. Also, I don't see how it puts the player at any disadvantage.

Just as the barbarian horseman can see more than a player would, I wouldn't be surprised if the AI can investigate the player's cities without an embassy or spy and at reduced cost or for free. It gets a whole raft of advantages on higher difficulty levels, free units at start, reduced cost of research, production bonuses, etc. It would be nice if the AI could compete with skilled players without such advantages. Time travel would be nice too. I'm not holding my breath for either.

The mutating settler thing is a new one on me.

 

[datarush]

I don't necessarily object to any advantages that the AI may be given, or that combat is not strictly by the numbers, but I think it should be documented. Since a single or sequence of combats comes out the same way every time, that doesn't match up with the calculation example on page 82 of the manual, e.g., and it isn't enough to say the arithmetic is complicated. Certainly this overlay of the nominal odds has something to do with otherwise improbable results such as caravels sinking subs and frigates beating destroyers. When the Civ docs & Help say a galley can only safely end on a coastal hex, you assume that no one is going to take stupid chances with ending in sea/ocean. Unless of course that player has the whole map and is willing to gamble to get to virgin territory that they know is within distance of the next move. That makes a big difference when you're trying to design a map that has areas that would be initially inaccessible if everyone had the same fog of war restrictions. Its a little bit like playing Monopoly where someone always gets Boardwalk at the start, or a poker game with marked cards. Yes the human is basically god and can always reload or find other cheats but the integrity of the game is diminished. I would vote for consistency and let the player ruin his own game with cheating, while disclosure of the 'real rules' is a distant second, and finally doing neither a copout.

 

[Moulton]

In a game where I shadowed AI galleys for many turns on the ocean, without their sinking, that map is posted on the HOF, large world, won by domination. Wont give you the saved game history, and I dumped them all to start new games. To be fair, on that map or another, not sure now, I found a route to an island, or what I thought was an island, with 2 ocean squares. I had lighthouse. The AI never tried that path.
The lighthouse gives the OWNER 4 moves, and safety on Sea squares. I do not believe anyone else gets safety on Sea squares.

I have also tested conbat sequences, reloading and trying different thngs. It appears that the roll is pre-assigned, but not necesarily the outcome. If you attack a knight with a knight, and it loses, then reload, attack with a bowman, it will also lose. Or wth any unit of lesser attack. If you attack with a swordsman, and it loses, then reload, and attack with a cav, It Might win.
Dan made reference to this when he posted his test map, suggesting that you try different sequences of attacks on your tests.
I have not done the map, wanting to finish my current game first.

 

[Zouave]

Realistic Starting Nations on the accurate Marla World Map.

I am the Chinese. 1400 AD.

My caravel spots a GERMAN galley in the Bering Strait near Alaska. The German world map I traded for shows no German exploration or settlement anywhere closer than Iceland in the Atlantic Ocean. So how did the German galley (in the ocean) get there?? A little Firaxis magic, no doubt.

 

[Umask077]

Im pretty convinced the AI does in fact enter the ocean but I still usually know the world before they do. I usually blow out about 8-10 Caravels as soon as I can.

Its hardly an issue however if they do cheat, There movement patterns are so erattic with galleys that they dont efficently map out of the world. This is evident when you have a ship near a galley or if you use the revealing utility.

As for being where they should be the revealer shows them move. If you dont trust watch the AI one game. I downloaded it and it gave me a pretty clear picture of AI stupidity.

Example: about 75 units moving towards my civ across england from china. So the first unit is to my defensive wall. He moves every other unit back towards his territory and with his last unit, a Rider attacks one of my tank. Then has to move everything towards me again. The AI is intresting to watch at least once. Call it cheating if you like but I dont normally play like that. Just once to see how the computer thinks.