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Game Breaking Issues

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Battlehelm043, Mar 5, 2019.

  1. Battlehelm043

    Battlehelm043 Warlord

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    I will let my Bug Post speak for itself. I feel the issues at present make the Diplomacy portion of the game unplayable. Worse is the fact that a simple DoF locks you into peace with an AI. In all previous versions of this game as well as CiV this was not the case. It truly makes Civ 6 a gimmicky strategy board game with little depth. I hope as I state in my link to my post in the bug forums that this is indeed a bug that will be rectified. As it stands it is extremely boring and impossible to play a single play through without depth.

    Has anyone else experienced this? I mean I truly want to enjoy Civ 6 yet these kind of issues really make that difficult.

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...lipping-and-diplomacy-options-missing.643336/
     
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  2. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    I enjoyed vanilla GS in the few games I played immediately after the release.
    I am very happy with it now that Ynamp Terra maps are working reasonably well, and I expect it will only improve after some minor re-balancing.
    Any other changes I would want will come from mods, and not to changes to the standard game.

    Unplayable? Lacking depth? Not even close to the mark, IMO.
     
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  3. Battlehelm043

    Battlehelm043 Warlord

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    I'm glad you are enjoying it. I really want to but the diplomacy is broken down to a gimmick at this point. I was skeptical at first when Civ 6 chose this art route, but it grew on me; additionally I have always been a wait and see person hoping that patches and expansions will fix things. It was just disappointing to see such a glaring issue with diplomacy since it is such a big part of the GS Expansion. Just because I am friends with an AI should not preclude me from denouncing or backstabbing to pursue my interests. I really was hoping the board game feel would be completely eliminated yet it only got stronger with these issues. If they can fix those issues and maybe I could muster the enthusiasm to move more games past the medieval era....
     
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  4. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Boring is a subjective opinion and not one I share. Lots of people enjoy playing through with all the new leaders so clearly not impossible.

    I followed your link expecting some major issues but found a minor graphical issue and a disagreement with the way the diplomatic system works, don't think either really approaches game breaking.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
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  5. Kruos

    Kruos Warlord

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    Totally agreed with you, AIs are far too friendly with the player.

    I suspect some bugs here, as in several games now I was surprised to see an AI (with negative opinion) sending me a warning and then turn into friendly status just after (technicaly it was in the same turn as you receive warnings at the very beginning of the turn). Also, I noticed that AIs behaviors seems far more consistent between themselves, warring and backstabing each others very often. It tends to reinforce the idea of bugs with player relationship.

    And as you have said, once in DoF with an AI, you can repeat it infinitely until end of the game (by sending a DoF the turn it finishes - even if the AI has a negative opinion), which is cool at the beginning, but finally very boring because it contributes to negate an entire game concept (diplomacy) at the end when every AIs is your allied BFF.

    IMO it should not be possible to repeat a DoF with an AI if its opinion has now turned into negative, it makes diplomacy far too easy, and uninteresting finally.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
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  6. Battlehelm043

    Battlehelm043 Warlord

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    Well first off, I'm not like some who would like the game to fail. Second I guess all I can say is I'm sorry for discovering issues with a game that is near and dear to my heart. The only way the franchise gets better is when even small issues are resolved or at least addressed and discussed.

    I guess I expected more concern from the community when it comes to caring about the quality of the game. Even if the issues are minor in comparison. I can see these issues being resolved through the next patch or two or with some optimization. Additionally, the only way they come to light is if they are discussed.

    To leave the diplomacy as limited as it is currently only serves to further the argument that Civ 6 was watered down from the start. I for one would love to see the diplomacy expanded upon. Depth is the key to Civ remaining great.

    I apologise for being hypercritical but when you sink as much time and money into a hobby, you want to see it thrive in the face of any opposition. Again I apologise for wasting reading time.

    I think the DoF preventing backstabbing, Demanding, or Asking for Promises is bad in general and leaves Diplomacy very flat and two dimensional
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2019
  7. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    This is your opinion. Do you have evidence to back up the claim that is an actual bug in need of a fix?
     
  8. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I find the AI starts to dislike me once I get close to victory. Yes the close to victory thing is still there (although hidden), I'm certain of it. Strangely, if you play after victory they will start to like you again.

    One thing I noticed when loading my old saves to try to get them into the HOF is how insane the joint war bug used to be. I'd get DOW from 4 or 6 people in the off turn. Now nothing. It was too insane before, now it's too passive. How about a middle ground Firaxis?
     
  9. DrJambo

    DrJambo Crash-test dummy

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    I do agree that friendship and alliances as they stand kind of remove the need to care about grievances and other actions, since auto renewal is effectively guaranteed.
     
  10. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    Jesus Christ, I guess you can never make everybody happy. I remember people complaining about vanilla that the AI behaviour is unrealistic, because one turn it is friends with you and the next it backstabs you; or that getting the AI to agree to be your friend was nigh impossible.

    As it stands, there are two ways of approaching the AI behaviour - i.e. roleplaying or gamey. The AI now plays in a roleplaying way - if you are nice to it, do what it wants and are friends with it, they will very rarely betray you. I think the opposite, gamey one (where it just invades you because it can, irrespective of a millennia-long alliance it used to have with you), would be more gimmicky to be honest.

    If you want to play against backstabbing, unpredictable opponents, play against human players.
     
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  11. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    Well, in my current game Monty declared a surprised war on me when our relationship was Friendly.
    He attacked me together with Poland and my relation with Poland was very bad. Don't know if they had an alliance or he just agreed to a joint war (i.e. bribed).
    Either way, I found that very realistic and satisfactory, nothing to complain about. This was Monty after all.
     
  12. Kruos

    Kruos Warlord

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    Maybe you mis-interpret my post (if you are refering to it - not sure).

    The AI now plays far more RP, and it's perfectly fine IMO. The problem is that it seems not well balanced or bugged. Any player can be friend all AIs very easily once at mid game, with nealy no effort. Worse, once BFF with everyone, it become static, which more or less kill the purpose of the diplomatic layer.

    As I said in my post above, there are some strange things that occurs with the player, like the AI warning you and in the same turn turning at 'friendly' status (while being at negative opinion total). In the same time AIs behaviors between themselves looks really good, with dynamic alliance, war, denoucement etc etc.. so it may be a clue at something no working as intended with player relationship systems.

    Another precision regarding the 'betrayal' subject. You seems to imply that betrayal behaviour is not compatible with RP approach (maybe I misunderstand your post). I do not agree. If an AI you were friend/allied with for some time has now a negative opinion of you (for any reasonà, it's perfectly fine for a betrayal triggering once DoF/alliance come to an end. What would be not fine would be a betrayal triggering while being at positive opinion (which was what the previous system in Civ5 was inducing by not really showing the opinion status).

    AIs tend to be very imprevisible in early game, but far less once the game advance. Basicaly you know that you are on the menu once there is no close city state left alive near an AI neighbour. It's why I jump on the DoF button when I see them turning into Friendly status.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2019
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  13. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    It was in the Industrial Era, and he was even later with techs because he attacked me with AT crew, 2 armies and 3 corps.
    And 30+ turns later he attacked me together with Hungary. Hungary is on the other continent and had 1 DVP from the Statue of Liberty. I've just won 2nd voting, so I had 4. This war is rather formal however, they don't do any serious attacks and I used it to liberate one of the cities Monty took earlier from Scythia.
    I must say my late-game is quite interesting and I haven't seen any stupidity in diplo or wc area so far.
     
  14. Kruos

    Kruos Warlord

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    That's interesting and reassuring. I have never seen this however in my games, maybe the issue me and OP are seeing is related to game settings? Mines are : Everything standard, Deity, Continent, with UI mods only.
     
  15. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    I am pretty sure this has nothing to do with game settings but the way people play the game. Meaning: AI programming is exactly the same. Difficulty matters indirectly because usually AI gets stronger so in the end it will make a bit different decisions. But not because it is e.g. Deity but because the current situation in the game dictates so.
    My game is on Emperor, UI mods, and I played peacefully until Medieval era. Monty took out Wilhelmina and he has the biggest empire (also took Scythia's capital). And since he is my neighbor, I actively tried to keep a good relation with him because my goal is to play as peacefully as possible. I only attacked Poland because Monty was running away with cities too much and there was no space for me to expand.
     
  16. King Rad

    King Rad Warlord

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    I've only played about 1 1/2 games so far, so this is based on very limited experience; but I've been fairly well pleased with the AI's responses so far. I've had attacks [usually early, I admit], but generally I've seen the AI respond to my play similarly to what I would expect them to. If I'm friendly, they now tend to respond accordingly. However, I have not found automatic renewal of friendships or alliances as situations change throughout the game. I've had civs go from allied to friendly, but refuse to renew the alliance or the friendship, to neutral (or worse) and sometimes back to friendly and allied, generally depending on the changing situation. In my current game, I've had a very hard time getting one friend to ally with me, even though I joined in an emergency to reclaim his captured city, which I did and liberated to him. However, so far, I'm generally pleased with the current system and the way the various leaders seem to respond to my actions.
     
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  17. Takfloyd

    Takfloyd Prince

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    Copied from bug report thread:

    It's very understandable that you think these diplomacy problems are bugs, but sadly it's just really poor game design. It's been years now and Firaxis has done nothing to make the diplomacy less binary and simplistic - after the early game, you are pretty much either best friends or worst enemies with every single AI, and from then on the interactions will pretty much be static for the rest of the game unless you permit them to change. Once an AI is declared your friend, it will remain your friend forever as long as you renew the declaration every 20 or so turns. And in those 20 turns, you have basically no diplomatic options with them other than basic trade or forming an alliance.

    There's no nuance, no possibility of being backstabbed(although the AI has sometimes been too likely to backstab you in previous versions) and no option to punish the AI or break the friendship if it for example attacks your other friend or a city state you are suzerain of.

    The same applies in the other direction - once you or the AI have denounced eachother, you have very few options for interacting with them. Sometimes it would be nice to agree to open borders with a rival out of necessity for example, but that's not even an option to suggest.

    Declarations of Friendship are definitely the single biggest problem with the diplomacy. Especially how easy they are to abuse.
     
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  18. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I agree totally, where we disagree is that I feel what you have raised are small issues whereas you describe them as game breaking and making it impossible to finish games.
     
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  19. Battlehelm043

    Battlehelm043 Warlord

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    My apologies, I should clarify what I stated and say that these issues limit my enthusiasm and prevent me from completing a single game due to how limiting the diplomacy is. I wish there were half as many options as BNW; I can only imagine those Diplomacy options integrated with the new system. I speculate it might be mind blowing.
     
  20. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    OK, certainly if that's how you feel you are entitled to that opinion (personally I was not impressed with Civ V at all and only played 33 hours of it compared to 900+ for Civ VI!).

    Raising bug reports is an excellent option to get the Developer's attention but you might want to think about sticking to one issue per thread.
     

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