Game Mechanics - Beyond The Sword 3.19

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Kaitzilla, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    I'm playing Civ 4 in 2021 and it feels like some of the old guides are out of date, missing pieces, or never got written at all.

    I'll try to write up a few of them here and put a link since Civ Illustrated #1 ended up being pretty popular.

    Add in a request or question and I'll take a crack at it when I have some time and energy.

    Don't forget that when I quote someone, you can easily follow the quote back to its source.
    Click on the upward pointing arrow to the right of (Person said: ^)


    1) Whipping Population for :hammers:
    Part 2
    Part 3

    2) Plot Culture and Determining Who Owns a Tile
    Part 2
    Part 3
    Part 4


    3) Land Target Mechanics

    4) War Success Mechanic - Getting the AI to talk and capitulate during war

    5) Diplomacy Modifiers - What are they, how do I gain them, and how do I get rid of them?

    6) Flavors - What an AI tends to tech more often
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    22,861
    I think a comprehensive up-to-date guide on whipping and granary mechanics would be nice.

    --I started typing up an idea and realized that it might be very broad, where some parts would be worthy of an article alone. I'd just say that some pieces regarding some of the more advanced pro tips from the masters would be cool.
     
  3. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Whipping mechanics :D
    *Cracks neck*, ok I'll try that one first!
     
  4. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Whipping Mechanics

    Let's dust off the 2006 guide on just this subject called Vocum Sineratio: The Whip by VoiceofUnreason
    A very nice introduction to whipping. :whipped: :egypt:
    All of that is correct for BTS patch 3.19 except that Slavery now costs Medium Maintenance to run as a civic.
    Spoiler :
    Yes, once Bronze Working is researched and the player has switched to the Slavery civic, they can sacrifice population in a city to produce units, buildings, and wonders in a single turn. (but not projects).
    Just click on the "Hurry Production" button in a city to rush the item at the top of the build queue to completion.
    Spoiler :
    Normal Speed Whips
    1 population = 30:hammers: if an item already has some production in it.
    1 population = 20:hammers: if an item has 0:hammers: in it. :sad:

    This 50% penalty prevents Slavery from being too strong and forces the player to plan ahead.
    "Cold Whipping" with 0:hammers: invested is thus mostly used in emergencies.

    A city can only whip up to half its population away in one whip, so a 10/100:hammers: Settler with no production bonuses would require a Size 6 city and 3 population to whip complete.


    Whip Anger
    Each whip on normal speed also causes the city to experience +1:mad: for 10 turns and stacks each time it's used.
    This temporary whip anger can be seen by hovering over the top of the city screen.
    Here a city has whipped twice in less than 10 turns and is experiencing +2:mad: "We cannot forget your cruel oppression!"
    Spoiler :
    It is possible to see exactly how long this anger will last by hovering over the whip button again.
    +1:mad: for 30 turns means the city will have 2 anger for 10 turns and 1 anger for another 10 turns.
    After 20 turns the city will be whip-anger free and the button will say +1:mad: for 10 turns again.
    Spoiler :
    Anyone playing the Aztecs can build Sacrificial Altars (Courthouses) and it will lower whip anger to 5 turns instead of 10.
    It will even turn 30 turns of whip anger that built up into 15 once built. Very neat.


    Production Bonuses
    Certain civics can increase the amount of :hammers: you get per population when whipping.
    • Organized Religion +25%:hammers: for buildings and wonders (not units! :sad:) (requires adopting a religion and having it present in a city to activate bonus)
    • State Property +10%:hammers:
    • Bureaucracy +50%:hammers: in capital city
    • Police State +25%:hammers: for military units (this includes workboats, scouts, and explorers, but not spies)
    Certain buildings present in a city can do the same.
    • Forge +25%:hammers:
    • Factory +25%:hammers:
    • Power Plant (coal,nuclear,hydro) +50%:hammers: (requires factory and the appropriate resource such as coal or uranium)
    • Iron Works +50%:hammers: if city has access to Iron and +50%:hammers: if city has access to Coal (National Park removes coal access)
    • Heroic Epic +100%:hammers: for military units
    • Military Academy +50%:hammers: for military units
    • Drydock +50%:hammers: for water units
    Civilization Traits also have a production bonus for certain items.
    • Industrious +50%:hammers: for Wonders and +100%:hammers: for Forges
    • Expansive +25%:hammers: for Workers and +100%:hammers: for Granaries and Harbors
    • Imperialistic +50%:hammers: for Settlers
    • Philosophical +100%:hammers: for University
    • Spiritual +100%:hammers: for Temples
    • Protective +100%:hammers: for Walls and Castles
    • Aggressive +100%:hammers: for Barracks and Drydocks
    • Creative +100%:hammers: for Library, Theatre, and Colosseums
    The ultimate boost to whipping is The Kremlin. :whipped:
    It boosts the amount of whipped :hammers: per population from 30:hammers: to 44.99:hammers:(effectively) before applying +production% modifiers.
    KREMLIN IS AWESOME! :smoke:
    Teching Fiber Optics obsoletes it.


    Whipping Wonders
    Just like with Cold Whipping, there is a penalty applied when whipping National and World Wonders.

    The penalty depends on the Wonder's hurry cost modifier.
    Here are the iHurryCostModifier from the BTS XML folder for the game's 48 Wonders.
    Spoiler :

    iHurryCostModifier = 50
    Palace
    Forbidden Palace
    Globe Theatre
    Hermitage
    Heroic Epic
    National Epic
    National Park
    Oxford University

    iHurryCostModifier = 100
    Angkor Wat
    Chichen Itza
    Colossus
    Cristo Redentor
    Great Library
    Great Lighthouse
    Great Wall
    Hagia Sophia
    Hanging Gardens
    Mausoleum of Maussollos
    Notre Dame
    Oracle
    Parthenon
    Pyramids
    Shwedagon Paya
    Sistine Chapel
    Spiral Minaret
    Statue of Zeus
    Stonehenge
    Taj Mahal
    Temple of Artemis
    University of Sankore
    Versailles
    Ironworks
    Moai Statues
    Mt. Rushmore
    Red Cross
    Wall Street
    West Point

    iHurryCostModifier = 200
    Kremlin
    Eiffel Tower
    Statue of Liberty
    Broadway
    Rock 'n' Roll
    Hollywood
    Three Gorges Dam
    Pentagon

    iHurryCostModifier = 300
    Apostolic Palace
    United Nations
    Space Elevator

    All that means is that after putting 1:hammers: or more into a build;
    Whipping a iHurryCostModifier=50 wonder will produce 20:hammers: per population whipped.
    Whipping a iHurryCostModifier=100 wonder will produce 15:hammers: per population whipped.
    Whipping a iHurryCostModifier=200 wonder will produce 10:hammers: per population whipped.
    Whipping a IHurryCostModifier=300 wonder will produce 7.5:hammers: per population whipped.

    Whipping at 0:hammers: in a build is penalized and you generally only get 2/3rds of the hammers you would normally expect.

    Production Modifiers like Forge + Factory + Coal plant only apply after the penalty from whipping at 0:hammers: and/or whipping a wonder is applied.
    A city with +100% production bonus whipping a United Nations complete with 0:hammers: in the build can expect (7.5*2/3*2) = 10:hammers: per population whipped.

    Projects like Internet and Apollo can't be whipped.


    Whipping on different game speeds
    Whipping a unit with :hammers: in it complete on Quick Speed gives 20:hammers: and 6 turns of whip anger.
    Whipping a unit with :hammers: in it complete on Normal Speed gives 30:hammers: and 10 turns of whip anger.
    Whipping a unit with :hammers: in it complete on Epic Speed gives 45:hammers: and 15 turns of whip anger.
    Whipping a unit with :hammers: in it complete on Marathon Speed gives 90:hammers: and 30 turns of whip anger.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
    Anysense likes this.
  5. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Whipping Mechanics Part 2

    VoiceofUnreason also talks very well about turning :food: into :hammers: efficiently.
    Whipping the Granary

    I see this question all the time.
    When do I whip the Granary complete?

    I would respond that a city that will spend the next 10 turns growing and has enough gold/gems/ivory to manage happiness is a good candidate.
    Whipping a Granary and then slowly building a bunch of Settlers and Workers is no good.

    The most important thing to remember is the Granary does not begin storing :food: until it is listed as one of your cities' buildings.
    It will then store food each turn that matches the city surplus and maxes out at 1/2 the food bin. (A Size 1 city has 22:food: bin, Size 2 city has 24:food: bin, etc.)
    So a Size 1 city that needs 22:food: to grow to Size 2 can only bring 11:food: when the city grows.

    This city here just completed a Granary and is producing +5:food: per turn at Size 1.
    It will grow to Size 2 in two turns when it reaches 24/22:food:, and the Granary will bring 10:food: to add to the 2:food: overflow.
    Spoiler :




    There are many guides floating around on when to best whip the Granary since it is a great optimization problem due to the Halt City Growth button below the whip button. (Popularized by Doshin I think)
    Spoiler :
    Say a city completes a Granary at Size 2 and then has 18/24:food:
    It works two cow tiles and generates +6:food: per turn.
    Halt growth is turned on and the next turn the city is still Size 2 at 24/24:food:
    Halt growth is turned off and the next turn the city is Size 3 at 18/24:food:

    Without Halt Growth button, the city reaches Size 3 at 6/24:food: and then Size 3 at 12/24:food:
    It has 6 less food if it doesn't use the Halt Growth Button! :eek:

    Keep in mind the Halt Growth button causes any extra food to be discarded (28/24:food: becomes 24/24:food:), but the granary still stores food up to its max.
    Interesting to think about, especially if the city can't grow onto another big food tile.

    Here are some granary discussions:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/whiping-a-granary.668214/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-exactly-does-a-granary-store-food.623090/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/why-is-granary-so-important.521018/


    Discarding whip anger
    A very high :food: city with 2 corn and 3 fish can quickly run up 6 or 7 whip anger especially on slower speeds.
    It turns out that giving the city away clears the whip anger (draft anger too) :D, and conquering it back instantly is just a Chariot and a war away!
    The details have to be carefully considered though.

    1) Consult the "City Gifting" guide once it is written to learn how to give away a city.
    2) The city needs to have at least 1:culture: for this to work. A religion in the city giving free :culture: or using a Cultural Civ that gets +2:culture: per turn is ideal.
    3) Because a gifted city will usually have all 9 tiles around it become the new AIs' territory, conquering the city is best done with a Chariot or 2:move: unit right away. (So you'll need Horse usually)
    4) If the AI receiving the city gift is the worst enemy of another AI (Annoyed and has the lowest diplomacy total), then the player will get -4 "You have traded with our worst enemy!" diplo points with that AI. :cry:
    5) The city will have to start over with 0:food: and 0 great people points once it is reconquered.
    6) The city will lose certain buildings on being reconquered such as Monument, Library, University, Theatre etc. the :culture: producing ones. :sad:
    7) When declaring war on the AI to take your city back, you will get -1 "You declared war on our friend" diplo points with every AI that is Pleased or Friendly with your target.
    You will also have to fight a war with them.

    Warning: If the city was gifted away with 0:culture: in it, it will experience -1 population loss, at least 3 turns of Anarchy, and extra buildings lost like Walls or Barracwhen reconquered :sad:

    Warning: The gifted city will lose plot :culture: on the city tile and surrounding 8 tiles, so don't do this with a city bordering an AI with strong culture pressure.
    You will get your city back after the war starts and it won't be able to work any tiles hardly since the neighbor now controls them all. :cry:

    With all the disadvantages, I tend to only clear 6 or 7 whip anger in a Marathon or Epic speed game using a 1-city AI to take the city gift.
    Creative Civs (+2:culture: per turn) have a real advantage with this technique because lost Monuments are no biggie and lost Libraries can be rebuilt quickly because of +100%:hammers: for Library construction.


    Queue management for whipping
    It can be tempting to put 1:hammers: into a bunch of different units and buildings to be ready to whip and produce them one after another in the future.
    Keep in mind that production decay occurs after a certain amount of turns that removes 1:hammers: per turn from the build each turn it isn't produced.
    Unit decay starts after 10 turns (cumulative) of no production
    Building + Wonder decay starts after 50 turns (cumulative) of no production.

    It is also possible to whip an item and then not produce it that turn by taking it off the queue.
    Perhaps the city has 2 angry citizens that can be whipped away now to save some food?
    And the player is planning to switch to Vassalage + Theocracy in 2 turns?
    Whip that Cavalry and hold off producing it until it can get +4xp.

    The queue can be managed by left or right clicking to take an item off the queue.
    Control + Left click adds an item to the top of the queue.
    Shift + Left click adds an item to the bottom of the queue.


    Managing :hammers: overflows from whips
    One of the best tricks of whipping is to whip away more than one population to get a large :hammers: surplus.
    This can then be put into something hard to whip the following turn such as a wonder.
    What are the mechanics of :hammers: overflow though?

    Here is the 1st example with a Warrior at 1/15:hammers: in a city with a Forge (+25%:hammers:)
    The city produces 1:hammers: per turn.
    1-population whipping instantly adds 30*1.25=37.5->37:hammers: to the Warrior bringing it to 38/15:hammers:
    The city adds 1:hammers: total production bringing the final total to 39/15:hammers: for the Warrior generating a 39-15=24:hammers: surplus.
    The :hammers: overflow cap is the greater of either the cost of the item being built which is 15:hammers: for the Warrior or 1:hammers: for the cities' Total Production.
    Every :hammers: past 15:hammers: in this example gets discarded in Beyond the Sword 3.19 (they just vanish! :cry:) or turn into :gold: in the Buffy Mod (24-15=9:gold: Cha-Ching! :D)

    This 15:hammers: overflow that has been capped then gets divided by any production bonus modifiers before carrying over into the next turn.
    15/1.25=12:hammers: overflow next turn.
    Spoiler :
    Example using Buffy Mod 3.19.005






    Here is a 2nd example with a Warrior at 1/15:hammers: in the same city with a Forge (+25%:hammers:)
    The city naturally produces 17:hammers: or 17*1.25=21.25 or 21:hammers: Total Production with Forge bonus when rounded down.
    1-population whipping instantly adds 30*1.25=37.5->37:hammers: to the Warrior bringing it to 38/15:hammers:
    The city adds 21:hammers: total production bringing the final total to 59/15:hammers: for the Warrior generating a 59-15=44:hammers: surplus.
    The :hammers: overflow cap is the greater of either the cost of the item being built which is 15:hammers: for the Warrior or 21:hammers: for the cities' Total Production.
    Every :hammers: past 21:hammers: in this example gets discarded in Beyond the Sword 3.19 (they just vanish! :cry:) or turn into :gold: in the Buffy Mod (44-21=23:gold: Cha-Ching! :D)

    This 21:hammers: overflow that has been capped then gets divided by any production bonus modifiers before carrying over into the next turn.
    21/1.25=16.8->16:hammers: overflow next turn.
    Spoiler :
    Example using Buffy Mod .005






    It is entirely possible to manipulate :hammers: overflows by whipping a 299/300:hammers: Cathedral complete using Stone for +100% bonus production.
    Then gift away stone or pillage the stone quarry once the Cathedral is at 359/300:hammers: and enjoy 59:hammers: overflow the next turn instead of the usual 29:hammers:
    Thanks LowtherCastle :)


    What happens if I whip something that can no longer be produced?
    If you whip a Chariot and give away your horse, or whip a Missionary and switch out of Org. Religion, then the item gets taken off the queue and is not produced.
    Not a huge deal.
    Get the Horse back before production decay hits and producing that 37/30:hammers: whipped Chariot can proceed smoothly.

    How about whipping a World Wonder that an AI has already completed?
    It is true that an Industrious civ with Marble might benefit from whipping the missed Oracle to get just a bit more fail :gold:.

    Just remember that any forest chops or Total Production a city tries to put into an item that can't be produced will just carry over to the next turn.

    Repeatedly putting :hammers: into an item that can never be produced such as a Knight when you keep pillaging your only source of horse each turn is banned in competitive play. :nono:
    A tidal wave of :hammers: far beyond the overflow cap can build a spaceship in 1 turn easily.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  6. Donald Duck1

    Donald Duck1 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2019
    Messages:
    60
    Very nice and complete!
    I wasn't aware that "It is also possible to whip an item and then not produce it that turn by taking it off the queue.". Indeed useful during the switch to Vass + Theo.
     
  7. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Heh, I played Civ 4 for years without knowing I could mess around with the build queue. :hammer2:
     
    shakabrade likes this.
  8. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Whipping Mechanics Part 3

    Getting into the fine details of whipping, it turns out that having a 25%:hammers: bonus and trying to cold whip a 25:hammers: Archer ought to be possible, but it's not. :confused:
    Spoiler :
    VoiceofUnreason has the answer of course.
    The Kremlin with its (-33% cost) whipping bonus also has such rounding problems. :mad:

    And a +25%:hammers: modifier that gives 37.5:hammers: per whip, is it 37:hammers: or 38:hammers: ultimately?
    Everyone has felt the agony of planning to whip something with 2 population, and then next turn an extra :hammers: or rounding calculation error meant that it will be 1-pop whipped instead.

    The dark art of using the actual whipping calculation formula is a pain, but it needs to be done for completeness sake.
    Malekith came the closest in 2006 I think.

    Civ 4 BTS 3.19 has the actual .xml values.
    NEW_HURRY_MODIFIER = 50 (penalty for whipping with 0:hammers:)
    iHurryCostModifier = 50, 100, 200, or 300 depending on the Wonder (penalty for whipping a wonder)
    iGlobalHurryModifier = -33 (Kremlin bonus!)

    How close did Malekith get?
    It feels like in testing that the Kremlin bonus and whipping with 0:hammers: penalty precisely cancel each other out.
    I don't think a 0.5 modifier for Kremlin and a 1.5 modifier for whipping with 0:hammers: is quite right.
    Kremlin should be 2/3 and whipping with 0:hammers: should be 3/2.

    Hmm, the 100% accurate precise whipping formula (population lost and :hammers: produced) with ALL modifiers included and rounding down after each math operation is... :think:
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  9. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Oslo
    Thank you Kaitzilla for another splendid article in the making.

    Question about Whipping during a golden age. Do you hesitate or not? Assuming no emergencies but solid military buildup by you. I feel whipping the cities down to the ground isn’t optimal then. On the other hand, on deity AI can research awful things in 8 turns.
     
  10. crashmon

    crashmon Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Messages:
    243
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, UK
    For your 2nd article can you focus on Diplo (as its so important in higher difficulties) and tech brokering, how to keep AI friendly and pleased... I do know each AI is different, but some general guidelines (for instance if you have Monty or Shaka next door regen the map :scan:) might help.

    Also why its a good idea to be careful with tech trades, as it may come back to bite you late game
     
  11. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Ya, I hesitate to whip or grow cities too much during golden ages.
    I really couldn't give any good advice since it is all situational.

    I do recall having a huge empire and using the last 6 turns of Golden Age to switch to Police State + Vassalage + Theocracy, continuously whip an enormous number of cuirassiers, then go back to normal with 1 turn of Golden Age left.

    Sure, a diplomacy guide would be good.

    I see people confused all the time about how long -4 "traded with worst enemy" lasts, or how the hidden diplo modifiers work.

    Just the modifiers-only is a huge guide.

    How to keep the AI happy and pleased is mainly building up positive + diplo points and avoiding - diplo negative points.
    Sucking up to the big boys, and treating the pipsqueaks that can't tech or tech trade properly like trash.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  12. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    There are a few other game mechanic threads I made floating around out there that I should stuff into this one I think.
    They kind of get lost in the strategy and tips forums when I look for them.

    Mainly my plot culture and land target threads which need some finishing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  13. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Plot Culture and Determining Who Owns a Tile

    Can you conquer another AI capital by settling close to one with the 1st Settler, using a +2:culture: per turn Cultural Trait civ, and founding a religion?
    Maybe :crazyeye:

    New players always have a tough time with the hidden game mechanic of plot culture, so let's discuss it.

    First, a guide to help explain what is going on, a truly excellent and masterful work by DerangedDuck back in 2007. :D
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/culture-mechanics-disassembled.225927/

    A guide for 1.61 Vanilla Civ before the expansions. :hmm:
    Need to test if everything is still the same in Beyond the Sword 3.19!

    Yes, everyone is familiar with City Culture, keep going. :popcorn:

    Plot Culture, yes that's a good name for it. :thumbsup:
    That unseen value that decides if the human gets the tile or the AI does.

    So according to this guide, a new city gets 2 Plot Culture on the city and 1 Plot Culture in the surrounding 8 tiles.
    The only data we are given about Plot Culture is % values where borders overlap, but it should be enough information to test with.


    Looks good so far.
    Cities are founded with 2 Plot Culture on the city tile and 1 Plot Culture in the surrounding 8 tiles.

    If the City gets razed, and a new one gets founded, can we get a new +2 plot culture on the city tile and +1 Plot Culture on the surrounding 8 tiles?
    Nope!

    Spoiler :



    If a city is founded on a tile that has 1 plot culture from a previous city founding, then the new city will have 2 plot culture on the city tile, not 3.
    The surrounding tiles will have 1 plot culture and the city ruin tile will have 2.

    Next question.
    Will a city that produces +0:culture: per turn generate more Plot Culture?
    No, it will not.

    Spoiler :








    We now how enough baseline data to do more complex tests.
    From the guide:
    Let's test what happens to Plot Culture once the city start generating +1:culture: per turn.
    Spoiler :




    Next Turn


    How weird!
    The city producing +1:culture: per turn produces +2 Plot Culture per turn on all 9 tiles!
    A possible explanation provided by Cusanus:
    If I'm reading that right, then any city that produces +1:culture: per turn will produce +2 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
    A city producing +2:culture: per turn will produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
    Etc. etc.

    Time to test a city that produces +2:culture: per turn then.
    Spoiler :





    Yes, cities that produce +2:culture: per turn do indeed produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
    So any time a city produces culture, there is a free +1 Plot Culture per turn more than expected.

    Next question.
    If a city produces +0.1:culture: per turn, does it get the bonus +1 Plot Culture per turn?
    Yup!
    Spoiler :


    Next question.
    If 2 cities with +1:culture: per turn share the same tile, does it get +4 Plot Culture per turn, or +3 Plot Culture per turn?
    The answer is surprisingly +4.
    Both cities generating +1:culture: per turn add +2 Plot Culture to the same tile each.

    Spoiler :

    Next question.
    When a city pops its borders, does it really get +20 Plot Culture per turn in the inner ring?
    Yup!

    Spoiler :
    Player capital just popped borders by running +10:culture: per turn for 1 turn


    AI's New Sarai has not popped borders and gets no excellent +20 Plot Culture per turn bonus on its 9 squares

     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  14. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Plot Culture and Determining Who Owns a Tile Part 2
    Sorry for the long delay Archghost.

    1) The inner ring bonus and the city center square (all 9 of them) get a flat City culture + 1 + 20 when the city culture is between 10:culture: and 100:culture:
    With +2:culture: per turn, going from 8:culture: to 10:culture: and popping borders activates the +20 plot culture bonus.
    Between 100:culture: and 500:culture:, the center 9 squares get a bonus +40 plot culture per turn :D
    500:culture: to 5000:culture: it is +60 plot culture bonus.
    5000:culture: to 50000:culture: it is +80 plot culture bonus.
    greater than 50000:culture: it is +100 plot culture bonus.

    2) Yes, the bonus is cumulative.
    You have described it perfectly. :goodjob:
    Each border pop stage adds +20 plot culture per turn to all the squares that the city used to have in the previous border situation.

    With no border pops (0:culture: up to 9:culture: in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]

    With 1 border pop (10:culture: up to 99:culture: in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]

    With 2 border pops, (100:culture: up to 499:culture: in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
    [////////////////////////][////////////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][///////////////////////////////][////////////////////////]
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
    [////////////////////////][////////////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////////////][////////////////////////]

    3) The enemy city square won't flip to the player's control when it reaches 50% like a regular tile.
    It will start to experience revolts and will flip on the 2nd revolt if the AI does not have a strong enough garrison.

    The city square will only ever have +1 Plot Culture more than the surrounding 8 tiles.
    The occurs from founding the city.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  15. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Plot Culture and Determining Who Owns a Tile Part 3

    After playing around for months, it turns out there IS a way to directly view Plot Culture. :eek:
    Thanks again @DanF5771!

    Just turn on DeBugging Mode as outlined by Jdog5000 10 years ago.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bts-in-game-debug-mode.279903/
    First, enable cheating in Civ 4 by typing in Chipotle in the .ini file.
    Save the changes before exiting.
    Make sure to change the .ini file in the Beyond the Sword folder, or you will just enable cheating for vanilla civ. :lol:
    Spoiler :




    Next, fire up a regular game of civ that can use World Builder.

    Once in the game, press Control + W to open up World Builder.
    Click on the Player Mode Buildings Tab in the top left and select "City" in the top left corner.
    Put a city on the map with left click.
    Right click the city to instantly destroy it if needed.

    Once a city is down, enter debugging mode by pressing Control+Z.
    This can only be done with CheatCode = Chipotle activated. :)
    Check out all the info the AI city has in debugging mode.
    Spoiler :
    Hover the mouse pointer


    Holding down Shift


    Holding down Control


    Holding down Alt


    Holding down Alt + Shift at the same time

    Now for the main event.
    Hold down Shift on a non-city tile to view the plot culture on that tile :)



    Time for testing!
    How much plot culture does a Great Artist's Great Work (culture bomb) produce in BTS Patch 3.19?

    A city with 0:culture: bombs a Great Artist, goes straight to 4000:culture: city culture, and pops borders 3 times.
    The plot culture added is:
    [//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0380][+0380][+0380][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0380][+0780][+0780][+0780][+0380][+0018][//////////]
    [+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
    [+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
    [+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
    [//////////][+0018][+0380][+0780][+0780][+0780][+0380][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0380][+0380][+0380][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]

    The Plot Culture added is the same if the city starts with 10:culture:.

    Oddly, if the city starts with 100:culture:, then there is an extra +20 Plot culture on all tiles in the first 3 rings. :hmm:
    [//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0400][+0400][+0400][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0400][+0800][+0800][+0800][+0400][+0018][//////////]
    [+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
    [+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
    [+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
    [//////////][+0018][+0400][+0800][+0800][+0800][+0400][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0400][+0400][+0400][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][///////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][//////////][//////////]

    What about running the culture slider at 100% and building culture in a city?
    Does it add lots of extra plot culture like in Civ Vanilla?

    It makes no difference in BTS 3.19. :sad:

    Do culture bombs help flip AI cities?
    Not directly.
    At best, 380 plot culture can be added onto the tile of an AI city 3 tiles away.

    If that AI city popped borders even 1 time while producing +1:culture: per turn, it starts producing +22 Plot Culture per turn in the inner 9 squares and 18 turns later a culture bomb would make the AI city tile about 50% player / 50% AI controlled.

    It is the 3 border pops and good +:culture: per turn that really puts pressure on an AI city 3 tiles away.
    The player city would be adding at least +21 Plot Culture per turn onto the AI city tile, so it might be possible to overwhelm an AI city that has less than 100 city culture:culture:

    What happens to Plot Culture when a city is gifted away?
    The city tile and 8 tiles around the city all go to 0 plot culture. :eek:
    Any plot culture beyond the center 9 tiles remains.
    If the Player gets the city back, the plot culture in the center 9 tiles does not return.


    Don't forget to set CheatCode = 0 after finishing playing around with debugging mode. :)
     
  16. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Plot Culture and Determining Who Owns a Tile Part 4

    There has been some question regarding how much plot culture a spy can add to a city tile using the spread culture :culture: espionage mission.
    Let's find out!

    **Fires up a test game, turns on debugger with chipotle and control+z, makes two test cities, spread culture 10 times, and.....

    The spread :culture: espionage mission adds 0 player plot culture to an AI city! :eek:
    It only adds player city culture to the AI city.

    In this test, the AI had 100:culture: in his city and the player had 0:culture: (Plot culture was 43 for AI and 1 for player, so 97% Byzantium and 2% English)
    After 5 spread culture missions, the AI had 100:culture: in his city and the player had 25:culture:
    Plot culture remained unchanged at 43/1 : 97%/2%





    Also, in case it was lost in the 'too long didn't read', a city only gets the hidden bonus +1 plot culture each turn if it generates positive city culture. (Even +0.1:culture: for a turn activates the +1 plot culture bonus)

    So a city producing +0:culture: per turn will generate +0 plot culture per turn on the squares in its borders
    This is true even if a city previously popped borders using the culture slider for 1 turn.
     
  17. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    "Land Target" Mechanics

    Basically, a "Land Target" is when one civ shares an 8 tile land border with another civ.
    This affects things like begging amounts, ease of capitulation, ease of peace vassaling, how likely an AI will go to war with you, etc. etc.

    Here are the threads I've found mentioning it so far:

    The absolute closest I've seen to someone pinning down "Land Target" is the thread where WastinTime blew away the competition in GMajor 134 using Peace Vassals to take over the world.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539468&highlight=land+target&page=5
    Specifically, Pollina's post with the test games.
    Spoiler :

    Step 1) Verify you need an 8 tile border to trigger "Land Target" status with an AI.

    We'll start with Polina's save (2nd one) since it is the easiest way to check. (Using a begging technique, the save would have to be reloaded after every beg :cringe:)
    This will help us duplicate WastinTime's findings that 8 tiles is the trigger, water tiles don't count, and diagnal tiles do count.

    With Power Ratio at 1.7 in the scoreboard thanks to the BUG mod, if "Land Target" status is active, Hatshepsut will Peace Vassal.
    If "Land Target" is not active, Hatshepsut won't Peace Vassal. :)
    Spoiler :





    First, a smattering of different border configurations.
    All of these result in Hatshepsut being willing to Peace Vassal (valid Land Target)
    Spoiler :







    Then we take away one city from that 3rd picture and suddenly Hatshepsut won't Peace Vassal (not a Land Target)
    That means diagonals must count and that 8 tiles is the threshold.
    Spoiler :



    So far, so good.
    WastinTime's conclusion of 8 border tiles with diagonals counting looks valid. :goodjob:

    Now we will test the water tiles not counting.
    In this test, we seemingly have 8 tiles of border touching on both sides, but Hatty won't Peace Vassal.
    That means that water tiles don't count, again just like WastinTime said.
    Spoiler :





    Now we dig deeper. :whipped:
    Does "Land Target" status require 8 land tiles of shared border on the human side?
    The AI side?
    Can a tile being touched on two sides count twice?
    MORE TESTING!

    In this test, the Human has 8 land tiles on the border and the AI has 7.
    Hatshepsut refuses to Vassal, and that means all kinds of things.
    1) The number of human land tiles the AI touches with their land tiles does not matter.
    Hatshepsut is clearly touching 8 human land tiles and that isn't triggering Land Target status.
    2) Hatshepsut's corner tile (#3) isn't counted twice. If it was, she would Peace Vassal.
    Spoiler :




    [/URL]

    Next, we switch things around with the Human having 7 land tiles on the border and the AI has 8.
    Hatshepsut will Peace Vassal.
    Spoiler :





    Finally, we have 3 Human Land tiles touching 8 AI tiles along the border.
    Hatshepsut will Peace Vassal.
    Spoiler :





    And to show that water tiles really don't count for this calculation, a slightly different configuation.
    Hatshepsut won't Peace Vassal.
    Spoiler :





    That should clear up all the confusion. :D
    Land Target - When a Civ is touching 8 neighbor's land tiles along their border with their own land tiles, the Neighbor Civ will consider them a valid LandTarget. (Diagonal is a valid direction for the purposes of touching. Water tiles don't count at all)

    DanF also mentions in D6 that a Land Target must also have a city on the same continent as an AI's capital.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7190899&postcount=84
    So don't expect the Land Target techniques to work on an AI with a capital on an island somewhere unless you can plant your own city on that same island.

    There are 5 places in Civ 4 where land target status comes into play as mentioned by Pollina. :thumbsup:
    • Being able to beg/demand for x3 amounts of :gold: or :science:
    • AI DOW calculations
    • Border Tensions negative diplo modifier
    • Peace Vassals and maybe Captitulation calculations?
    • Monopoly tech values for "We don't want to start trading that right now"
    I'll try to work on this more later.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  18. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Oslo
    Great. Can you include vassal mechanics in that section? Or is it so simple: 3 city captures, 40 more units killed and power ratio 1.5? If so, what do the resist capitulation (x/10) mean in the other guide know your enemies.
     
  19. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    Plot Culture is not too popular.
    I'll add to it later.

    On towards diplomacy!
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    10,849
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    America!
    I broke my teeth the last time I tried to write out exactly what it takes for an AI to capitulate. :lol:
    I'll put it on the list sure.


    A capitulation requires 40 war success, having more land/population than the target AI, and getting the AI power rating down far enough I think.


    "Resist Capitulation" was a composite score combining two things.

    1)How many turns before an AI would talk to the player after a DOW.
    2)And how far the AI has to get below the average power rating of all the remaining civs in the world before they will give up.

    Sitting Bull was a real hard case because he takes forever before he will speak and his Soldiers count has to be crushed down to very low levels compared to the world average before he will capitulate.

    Good luck getting a vassal if they have a huge navy (hard-to-kill power rating boosters) or there are a lot of wimpy 1AI-civs left alive on the map making the "Average Power of the World" very low. :(

    I need to test war success mechanic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
    Major Tom likes this.

Share This Page