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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Yup..where did you see heavy armored horsemen?
    Dothraki are not wearing much armor.

    Overall the negativity from some towards this episode can be confusing, good criticism okay..
    but if you are surprised by plot armor, or not everyone relevant for 3 more episodes dying,
    then i will be blunt and say: watch more fantasy, and look if it's different there ;)

    It's not perfect, movies & TV are not ment to be, but this was darn good overall.
    Get over yourselves.
     
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  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I take it that my efforts at incorporating self-deprecation into that post were wasted.

    I didn't. I don't watch the show at all. I certainly didn't watch the latest episode. I'm just bored because I'm leaving work in less than five minutes and don't really have anything to do but kill time until then.
     
  3. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    What a bizarre thing to say. The early books and show made a huge point of showing that major characters didn't have plot armor, it's part of what made Game of Thrones such a sensation.

    It's fine if you like it, it's fine if I don't like it. Don't tell me my opinion is wrong, or that I'm not allowed to criticize something.
     
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  4. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    And with all opinions, especially mine included, they are always subject to ridicule. :p
     
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  5. Synsensa

    Synsensa Warlord Retired Moderator

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    Characters always had plot armour in GoT. There were just so many of them that you didn't notice because a few of them bit the bullet. Now that there are only a couple handfuls left, you're faced with the issue of still having material to reach the end of the line. Can't really do that if you Red Wedding everyone every single episode.
     
  6. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    There is a middle ground between a Red Wedding every episode, and having all major characters constantly survive certain death because they are major characters.
     
  7. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Well with only three episodes left, the armor will get a bit thinner.
    But in all honesty there are quite a few characters that we really don't need anymore that could have provided great fodder for some really gruesome death.
     
  8. civvver

    civvver Warlord

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    Really it boils down to this: Exact same issue as Avengers End Game, we had been building to this moment for literally years and you expected a truly epic experience and what you got was less than you expected. I've been blown away so many times by game of thrones that I expected this one to top all the rest and it didn't. It was fine for what it was, it just wasn't great. And I wanted great. I wanted this to be my favorite episode ever. It's not. Oh well. Same with End Game, not even my top 5 favorite marvel movie. Oh well. Doesn't mean it sucked. Expectations can be a *****.

    On top of all of it, it's rainy and 40 degrees here and it's almost May, the Lions had a downright terrible draft so it's like a trifecta of disappointment this weekend.
     
  9. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    The cavalry charge was actually a surprisingly nice bit of storytelling. A brainless Dothraki charge into the darkness was explicitly not part of the plan, as described in the second episode. The Dothraki charged because brainless yolo tactics are what they do: they got fired up by the...uh...fire, and they rode out to fight. Against the people of the plains of Essos, yolo charges worked okay. High morale is a good thing, and striking terror into the hearts of the enemy is also a good thing. But in this case, obviously, the dead were the terrifying thing. Zombies don't suffer from low morale. So the plan completely fell apart at the start of the battle. It disintegrated further when Daenerys, angry about the complete waste of her Dothraki horde, got on her dragon to try to fix things.

    The writers confirmed that this was the case on the "behind the episode" segment after the end of the episode.

    Now, the plan as originally constituted was not a good plan. Siege engines in the wrong place, Dothraki in front of heavy infantry, no flanks worth mentioning, total failure to integrate obstacles and fires. Those things were very silly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
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  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    At this point it seems that Cleganebowl will be at ep5, with the seven at Thebes stuff :)

    I also read a supposedly "highly trusted" source of leaks, about Tyrion. Won't say anything, obviously, yet even if true it seems to be more garbage story progression.
    I would tend to hope the NK resurrects in time - albeit aeons later - but even so... the build up to just having him killed by massively superhero Arya was ridiculous.
     
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  11. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    To elaborate on this point - the Red Wedding isn't great television just cuz lots of people died. Robb made a believable and understandable decision to marry a woman he fell in love with, thereby breaking his agreement with Walder Frey, and eventually the Red Wedding happened as a logical consequence of those actions. A fantasy hero was actually punished and paid the price for a mistake he made? And it's a result of believable character decisions? Whoa! It subverts your expectations while making complete sense.

    My issue with the recent episode isn't that these people survived, that's fine really. I wanted a lot of them to survive and was relieved when they did. But if you're going to show someone seemingly die (or place them in a situation of certain death), cut away without showing how they managed to survive that situation, then at the end of the episode they're fine... it feels cheap. There's a difference between simply surviving the episode, and surviving the episode through plot armor.
     
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  12. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    The Red Wedding and the other Big Deal Moments from the first three books/seasons would have resonated more with me had either Martin or the showrunners been more interested in how power politics and warfare actually work.

    For example, they create an effectively unstoppable constellation of powers behind Renly Baratheon and then eliminate them with demon baby magic. They build Ned Stark up to be Captain Honor and portray that as the reason his coup d'etat fails, when in reality it's Stark's method of playing in the plague pit that gets him killed, not whether he did it or not. They create an unsolvable military dilemma for noted incompetent Tywin Lannister, who constantly gets his ass beat by all comers, and then allow him to bend time and space to solve it. They seem to have no understanding of how medieval state finance actually worked, which is unfortunate because it constitutes several major plot points.

    There are no truths here about the way the world works. Just the same sort of storytelling common to most fiction.

    So, sure, the Red Wedding is the logical consequence of the erosion of Robb Stark's military power in the face of Tywin Lannister's inexplicable indestructibility and a string of battlefield victories that don't really lead anywhere. It's also the logical consequence of Walder Frey's inexplicable willingness to accept Stark's promissory note (of marrying a Frey girl eventually) rather than compel him to wed on the spot. The latter solution was the one that Stark's own sainted father, Captain Honor, took during Robert's Rebellion to marry Catelyn - nobody's idea of either a good mother or an intelligent noblewoman - but Robb doesn't take it because it has to set up his monstrous idiocy in the two subsequent seasons. The whole situation is faintly absurd and the entire lead-up to the Red Wedding feels painfully telegraphed.

    While it's true that part of the reason that people were shocked is because they're used to seeing people be able to get away with stupidity and suffer no consequences in fantasy, they're also used to seeing people get away with stupidity and suffer no consequences in this series. Tywin, for example, badly mismanages the Lannister family and the country at virtually every turn and nobody bats an eye (some people brainlessly call it good statesmanship), but he pushes Tyrion (way) too far and gets shot. Sure, okay, whatever.

    This show is, in Ian McShane's memorable turn of phrase, just tits and dragons. It has always been tits and dragons. It was tits and dragons in the hallowed First Three Books, and it's been tits and dragons ever after. It ain't the Arthasastra.
     
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  13. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Sure, yet now it is also Zena :)
     
  14. Yeekim

    Yeekim Warlord

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    What little one could actually see in the blur and darkness made even less sense. 2/5
     
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  15. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I thought it was an enjoyable enough slugfest. They still do the big battles well even if the story isn't as enjoyable as the early seasons.
    They did kill off several major characters. Theon, Melisandre and Jorah have all been there from the beginning.
    I guess I'll hold judgement on if they should have killed off more until we've seen if they still have much of a role to play.

    Nobody in Westeros seems to use much in the way of tactics. Did like the Unsullied though, they looked like real soldiers (to my amateur eye).
     
  16. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    Dachs, those are fair criticisms.

    I never really thought that the show had any deep "truths about the way the world works," but calling it simple tits and dragons is a bit reductive. I enjoyed the storytelling of the earlier seasons, it was pretty unique among fantasy TV shows, and it's just not that show anymore. I still enjoy the show (most of the time), but in a different way than I used to.

    Someone mentioned Endgame as being similarly disappointing, but I actually liked Endgame a lot more than the episode. I'm sure a lot of that comes down to my expectations for an Avengers movie versus my expectations for Game of Thrones, but still. I liked episode two a lot, and it reminded me of the earlier seasons in a good way, so perhaps I simply let that get my hopes up too much. I didn't like Battle of the Bastards all that much either, so I don't know what I was expecting here.
     
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  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    When it was first revealed last season I absolutely despised the mechanic of Wights falling automatically when the White Walker who raised them is slain, but by the time of this episode I had come to accept it as unavoidable show canon. The idea that the White Walkers themselves would fall was until this episode however pure speculation of Beric Dondarrion's part, with no evidence to support it.

    If I had been writing for them last year I would have insisted that wights do not fall apart when their White Walker is vanquished, but rather loose control. They would become incapable of tactics and attack everyone on all sides, or so pliant they will follow any orders from anyone, or so passive that they won't resist as they are cut down.

    After writing my last post I thought of another alternative; they could remember who they were and become sentient wights like the show version of Uncle Benjen (or the book's Fire-Wight version of Beric or Lady Stoneheart). Of course, to retain much of one's old personality the wight would need to be relatively fresh and undamaged. Few of them would even be as sane as Lady Stoneheart. Most people cannot handle the knowledge that they are dead and have personally murdered many of their loved ones people with their bare hands.

    In the books dragon-glass and Valyrian steel are probably not effective against Wights, only against White Walkers. (The only time dragon-glass was tried against them it shattered against that corpse's armor. Cutting a wight up into pieces does not do much good, and severed limbs continue to fight on their own until the bones are crushed into powder. Fire seems to dispatch them much more quickly than we've seen on the show though, and in warm weather a severed hand can rot too much to be able to move any longer.) Given what the show's version of Coldhands/Benjen said happened to him, it could have been interesting dragonglass was useless against Wights unless it was used in a critical strike to their hearts, in which case they break free from the White Walker's control and can join the fight on the side of the living.

    They could have shown a lot more main characters die and yet still keep them around if they turned them into wights who broke free from The Night King and became like Benjen. It might have been interesting if after the Night King is defeated, our heroes lead an army that is mostly undead in their battle against Cersei.
     
  18. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Little late, but is it only me who got incredibly taken out of the show during the obsidian smithing scenes? Like, my standards for the series have been intentionally lowered in order to enjoy it, but that was just pure whiplash.

    EDIT: I don't want to sound cold here. The series is still alright, I'm still seeing it because I care what happens to the characters... Because the first seasons were really good and set them up well. I just wondered if anyone else got as bothered by the obsidian silly pudding.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
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  19. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    I liked how the Dothraki charge was done, all those flickering lights being snuffed out was ominous
     
  20. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Visibility seems to be really poor, so that wouldn't give them much time or room to charge.

    I do agree that the siege weapons are used poorly, but that's standard fare for any movie battle. I remember Gladiator's battle having a similar issue, way back then.

    I think that is more or less the intention. They aren't able to because things go south. All of the forces couldn't have fit inside the castle, so forming outside to try and delay the enemy's advance, followed by an orderly retreat and then castle defence is probably the plan, judging by what's shown. But clearly they are unable to do this for various reasons that we saw.

    I'll chalk it up to the writers not appreciating the difference between light and heavy cavalry :dunno:

    There's no indication in the show that the Dothraki use light cavalry tactics that I can remember. The writers treat them and any cavalry in the show similarly.

    There's really only a few characters that would fit your criterion at this point (Jon, Dany, maybe Arya, Sansa and Bran). And I really don't think they would've killed them off anyway in this episode.

    On my part, I had low expectations going in, so I enjoyed it more than I otherwise would. But after sleeping on it, my impression of the episode has certainly gotten worse. There are major issues that become more pronounced when you think more about them, so I'm definitely not going to insistently defend it because of any emotional investment. Seen that among some TLJ fans, and I'm not going to be like that.

    It was good for that hour plus of watching.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
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