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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    But up to this last point, it was easier to forgive Dany for some of those 'questionable' episodes due to her circumstances. Most rulers will display some ruthlessness in order to stay a ruler. But wholesale slaughter of KL changed the equation for me.
     
  2. MaryKB

    MaryKB Vice Princess Supporter

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    Varys and Tyrion specifically have a conversation about how the lords of Westeros would prefer a man, it's about his gender not about how fertile he is. There's no alternate interpretations, they're very explicit about that.

    She "let" Khal Drogo execute her brother? How's she supposed to stop him? Her brother committed a serious crime, and he threatened to kill her and her baby, and yeah Drogo did what Drogo does. She's certainly killed people, I mean every leader on this show has ... she's passed judgement on people and she's carried out sentences, that doesn't make her a madwoman.

    She didn't execute a former slave for rebelling against the Harpies, she executed him for murdering a prisoner awaiting trial ... she's trying to be fair.

    I say it's not for Varys and Tyrion to judge her, she's their queen and they need to submit to her judgement. Who says they get to decide if she's doing okay, action by action? Oh, she's supposed to ask their permission first for everything, right? And then she's automatically wrong if she doesn't do what they tell her to or what they approve of. Even though her execution of the Tarlys achieved her objectives, and Varys has never been able to guide a good king and Tyrion's time as Hand is one failure after another.

    I don't know why it seems like people think I'm saying her destruction of King's Landing was some sort of noble or heroic act? I've said I feel it's tragic, but I understand why she did it and I do feel from her perspective she didn't really have much of a choice.
     
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  3. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Look at it this way.
    If Jon had done it, it still would have been tragic and I would understand why he did it after Cercei was responsible for killing Ned and indirectly the rest of his family.
    And Jon's followers (including his sister) questioned his every decision and passed judgement on him.

    Sex, is only one aspect of it. Most is the same either way.
    But again, your interpretation is as valid as anyone else's.
     
  4. MaryKB

    MaryKB Vice Princess Supporter

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    The difference is Jon is a proven idiot with a track record of failures :p

    Daenerys has proven herself successful and effective, but she's still questioned on everything unless she agrees with the men around her, no matter how inept they are. Jon keeps getting the benefit of the doubt.

    That's typical, and real.
     
  5. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Or alternatively, possibly for the best by now, "by the guts of the last pope we shall hang the last king".
     
  6. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Fine, as long you accept my interpretation as definitive. :p
     
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    I'm not convinced, from experience, that these describe the same group people.
     
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  8. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    It's not so much about Dany, but more about her dragons.
    Well..1 dragon in the end, but still.

    They are feared, and should be by everyone who thinks logical (inside the GoT universe), even if they helped before.
    I think it was Jorah who said: They are dragons Khaleesi, they can never be tamed.
    Remember how shocked many chars reacted when watching dragonfire, even if it was on their side for now.

    Many have followed & supported Dany, maybe more than they should have.
    But i dun feel like judging that, however seeing her as victim feels very questionable for me.
     
  9. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    Certainly not, but the original claim didn't suggest that. Only that they are not mutually exclusive. They were stated as two necessary conditions for someone to be considered a true fan. As long as there are some people who care about both, there are at least some people who are true fans.
     
  10. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    Real fans is the group, they have characteristics X and Y. That says absolutely nothing about the things with just characteristic X and with just characteristic Y and how they overlap.

    "A true bicycle must have two wheels and handlebars."
    "Ah ha! But the group of things with two wheels is not the same as the group of things with handlebars!"
    "You're drunk go home."
     
  11. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    (For the record, I did originally post the thing quoted by above, but deleted it because I realised I don't care enough to have this argument.)
     
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  12. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    As an experienced manager I have learned that if your advisers are not questioning everything you're doing, you hired crappy advisers. You pay them to disagree but the final decision is yours. And in all fairness, they almost always went along with her ultimate decision in the end. So more the dynamics of leadership and not sex.
     
  13. civvver

    civvver Warlord

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    My list of people she's killed wasn't an indictment of her, all of those people deserved death, or she could've been merciful and pardoned them, but my point was only that she's ruled with a tight grip in the past so this should not be considered a complete descent into madness. It has been foreshadowed.

    And varys is keeping with his character. He questions everyone. He questioned robert. He worked to overthrow joffery. He freed tyrion. He's always been for the people, and he was at least partially right since Danerys set king's landing on fire.

    I'm still on team Dany I'm just saying to make her a persecuted mainly for being a woman seems like a real stretch. It's more about her being a foreigner or part of a previous regime everyone was afraid of and her getting backed into a corner.

    And Jon is only half targaryan, he's part stark as well which is more appealing than only a targaryan.
     
  14. MaryKB

    MaryKB Vice Princess Supporter

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    Arbitrary executions? What on earth are you talking about???

    She executed the Tarlys because they fought against her and refused her demand to submit ... and that's kinda what happens in these kinds of wars. She needs to win quickly, that's why she wasn't willing to be all willy-nilly. If she were a man, she'd be called strong and decisive.

    Wow you're really reaching here Syn ... she helped Jon at huge sacrifice to herself, because she knows she needs to unite all the kingdoms under her rule if she's going to make a difference. She can't show signs of weakness, or her entire effort's going to collapse. She already has to fight such an uphill battle against this system.

    She showed no signs she was unworthy to rule, except she wasn't willing to submit to her idiotic male underlings. Yes, she went into a rage and burned down the world, but that's after she knew there's nothing at all she can do to ever win in this world.

    Varys absolutely is in keeping with his character ... he wants a puppet ruler who will do his bidding. He worked to overthrow Joffrey? When exactly? He didn't free Tyrion, Jaime made him do that, Varys testified against Tyrion so he could save himself. Varys is the other side of the coin with Littlefinger, those two are so very similar.

    And it's not a "real stretch" to say she's being disrespected for being a woman, that's exactly what happened in this show. That's sort of what this whole program is all about, and Varys even says it a couple weeks ago to Tyrion.
     
  15. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    You're entitled to think that. Others are entitled to think using their biases.
    I will not disagree that Westeros is on the sexist side.
     
  16. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    Joffrey aint looking so bad now, is he
     
  17. MaryKB

    MaryKB Vice Princess Supporter

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    Surprisingly thanks, and while I totally get what you're saying here and do appreciate it, I just do tend to get a bit triggered by what I perceive as sexism denial, especially by men who've never experienced it.
     
  18. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    2 women fight over the throne while the incompetent true heir keeps getting bailed out by his sisters
     
  19. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Or Cersei. Not much consolation for her, but Dany made sure that should she ever get on the throne people would look on the Lannister era as something to remember fondly.
     
  20. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    To be fair I haven't really seen anyone defend the atrocities committed by men in this series by saying they were "strong and decisive". Burning people because they don't bend the knee, although is understood and acceptable as part of this story, isn't really a morally defensible thing to do. I think Dany is far and away the most questionable character on the show who's actions were largely defended by fans. This last episode was Game of Thrones giving fans, who supported a conqueror who wanted to take what she claimed was hers by birthright, no matter the cost. Tens of thousands of people were always going to die and suffer from the war she was bringing, but we were cheering for it anyway. We wanted her to storm kings landing and bring justice to Lannisters for 8 seasons. They gave us what we wanted and now we realize how sick it was to begin with.

    I don't mind the sexism angle as something to think about but pushing it too hard is a reductionist take on the show IMO.
     

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