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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    While I have to admit I've never experienced it personally, looking at this show, I see so many powerful/strong woman leaders/characters that despite the setting which is totally sexist, the writers don't seem to think woman are weak. Even the secondary female characters are very influential.
     
  2. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    I'm disturbed that you manage to inject so much of it in it and just how much you use to excuse so many ugly acts and how much you twist events so it fits your narrative.
    And I mean, I'm honestly frankly disturbed.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
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  3. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    And Cercei , Olenna, Yara, and poor Sam would be useless without gilly. The list is quite long.
    And don't forget, 'You know nothing Jon Snow' and he even married her in real life. :lol:
     
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  4. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Sorry, that's just wonky.
    She had been shown as being potentially ruthless. What happened in King's Landing was not "ruthless", it was "comic book villain".
    "ruthless" would have been to burn the palace from dragon without bothering to get the servant and people out. Burning the city is just dumb and a plot device to make her cross the moral horizon, because a regular conquest with some dead as a side effect would actually be expected and would fail to drive people and in-show characters against her.

    This season is just contrived to make her a villain in five episodes.
    Yeah, no, that's also a completely wonky argument.
    "I want 50 bucks !"
    "okay, so you want me to throw a grenade into a concert and then spray bullets on people who rush toward the exit so I can grab 50 dollars on their corpse !"
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  5. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think the thread is going off-topic, the subject of the thread being how stupid D&D's writing is ^_^
     
  6. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    Yeah, only in comic books do the villains destroy cities. In real life that would never happen.
     
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  7. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    It rarely happens in real life, and usually it's for a practical reason and not just because the narrative requires that you suddenly becomes a bad guy. Seems to me you're just purposely missing the point that I was specifically making, and the fact that you deliberately left out the part of my post which explain it makes me even more sure of that.
     
  8. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    If you really missed all the practical reasons for why it was in Dany's interests to do that, then you aren't paying attention.

    The idea that they made her the villain in five episodes is hilarious to me. This has been foreshadowed since season 1. Destroying cities like this has historically been and effective and commonly deployed tactic to establish power in a foreign land. It's not a plot device, it's a strategically defensible move in a conquest. The Greeks would literally slaughter all the men and sell the women and children into slavery as standard practice. An effective way to get the other kingdoms in line and establish yourself as a ruler to be feared. It's exactly how the Targaryen's did it last time when they established a 300 year rule. Plus given the situation with Jon, this might have been the only move left for her to make if she still wanted the power, which she obviously did.

    You wanted her to kill thousands, you said it yourself above, and then she kills a million and you act like it's this totally separate category. It's not, it's a matter of degree. You just didn't like her methods.
     
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  9. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    This wasn't the norm in the greek world. And there are many famous cases where it did not happen despite some leaders wanting to. Tldr different things happened, in the same period. Eg Athens didn't get decimated after it lost the pelop war, Melos had everyone killed or sold to slavery (Pelop war), Phokis cut a deal with Philip B' and avoided utter ruin and slavery (third amphictyonic war; rise of Macedonia happened during that), Thebes got annihilated by Alexander as a result of the second Athenian-led revolt (but Athens yet again was left untouched). Furthermore there was the "crimes against hellenism" thing going on in the 5th- century BC, and barbaric practices were always far worse. Generally this was to a significant degree for the same not so noble reasons that the west now has more humanitarian rules and different standards.
    A better comparison (historic tie) with Dany burning KL would be how mongols acted. If the city surrenders (with no trouble; this isn't what happened in KL which surrendered after it was clear it would fall) they didn't harm it. If it didn't surrender then everyone was slaughtered, regardless of whether it tried to surrender later on.
    Obviously it is an abominable crime, and obviously it is done for a specific reason, to send the message that if you actually try to resist (and lose) you will all die, so don't resist.
    Of course in modern times this was against international law. I recall it didn't change much, given how tens of thousands of already occupied people were slaughtered by germans in ww2, just on account that they *might* have helped some militia, and therefore reprisal of wiping out entire villages was ok. Dany lives in a mevieval world, so i don't think what she did itself was unrealistic in that setting. Her character could have been more fleshed out, but i actually found the burning of KL to be the best part of this season.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
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  10. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Speaking of "not paying attention", let me restate what you seem to have missed :
    Maybe it makes sense in comic book villain logic, but that's not the logic I want from GoT.
    I'm at a loss of words. You just make jumps in reasoning that make absolutely no sense and you seem to read whatever you write in your mind instead of what is actually on the page.
    I guess it's pointless, we aren't even sharing the same dimension at this point.
     
  11. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    I already addressed this. It happens and makes sense in real world logic. It has been used effectively in real life and in the history establish in the show. Dany was particularly in need to consolidate power due to Jon. She knew she couldn't be loved, so she had to use fear.

    Dany was someone who from the beginning had an atrocious single goal -to take what his hers by birthright, and force people to bow before her. We were always wrong to be cheering for her, and this is what we get.

    Feel free to try to lay out a counter argument to this view; otherwise, yeah to be frank I'm not really concerned about all your grievances. If you have a good point to make then make it. If I misrepresented your position then tell me where I went wrong and we can move on from there.
     
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  12. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Everything Kyr said. And there's another difference: when Tyrant X destroyed a citiy they usually didn't plan to make their home there.
    Going from memory, I remember a story about Alexander the Great. At one point he was besieging a city and, in one of his infamous bouts of rage, publicly declared that he wasn't going to let even dogs alive there. But once he cooled down, and the walls were about to fall, he corrected himself and addressed his army: you can kill the dogs if you like it - but leave the people alone...
     
  13. Arwon

    Arwon

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    I've long expected that there won't be an Iron Throne to win at the end of the series (book or show) and that the question of who will win was always a red herring.

    I'm less sure of that now, because I thought the dead would do a lot more damage. But I do strongly doubt we're just going to put secret royal Jon there and start a new dynasty after all this subversion of the concept of destiny.

    And would I hope things end with at least the dissolution of the Seven Kingdoms (the destruction of the capital might suggest this), or the end of absolute hereditary monarchy.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Again, if the leaked plot for episode 6 is real... you will regard episodes 1-5 of season8 as a masterpiece compared to how it ends :)

    Then again... i think it will be real.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Having caught up now (watching the episode and overviewing this thread), I must say that the key scene of this episode was the talk between Dany and Jon. Him Flinching before the kiss is understandable (she's his aunt!), but instead of talking it out for a night or a week and finding common ground, she goes "Fear it is". The showrunners do like to cut away right from any scene as soon as it gets interesting... I find that annoying.

    Things I liked
    • Seeing the mountain, that zombie was gorgeously done. And a reveal for the books as well, though they let him keep his head here :)
    • burning Kings Landing (it was appropriate for a show such as Game of Thrones, though I do believe the books will explain it better
    • that this episode sets it up for something different than "a good king/queen ruled the land peacefully" - I can't imagine Jon as a Targaryen to be hailed up after Dany the Targaryen has just burned a whole city. (But you never know, they can still go there...)
    • That the story takes an unexpected and black turn, it could never have been a straightforward simple resolution. So it doesn't matter if the actors and fans complain about the story, it fits from a literary point of view (but of course, set-up and execution of the plot is sub-par and will make a lot more sense in the books, if they ever come out).
    • That it was so easy for a Dragon to control a battlefield, seemed more right than their power level of the previous episodes.
    Things I didn't like:
    • Jaime turning Pro-Cersei again, I'd have liked him to be the little brother choking her. That could even have been a little twist as it may have been out of passion due to being buried under the whole castle. As it is, it betrays his whole character arc, from revealing what he did. I didn't believe his scene last week with Brienne, but apparently, he was sincere?
    • Why do armies always leave the city instead of staying behind the Walls?
    • Arya in the city. She's there to give us a camera in the streets, but truly her tactics seem completely strange for a super assassin. Scout a little... Ok, there was no time, but that was just because the showrunners wanted to have it that way... It just seemed strange for her to panic like that.
    • I expected in the first half more talk, as in Arya/Hound & Jaime reaching the Red Keep before the attack starts. That would have been interesting. Some calmer scenes
    • The apparently varying strength of the ballistas. Their effectiveness was so completely depending on the needs of the plot. It's just annoying, but one has to live with it if you want to watch the show...But that adaption unevenness has been a topic for a long time
    • Civilians running through the streets and then being lit up by dragon fire. I got it by the fifth time, thank you, no need to show it ten times more...
    • On that, how did Dany know which streets to burn and which had her army in them? It's not wise to kill your own loyal army... But then again, the fires exploded by the needs of plot...
    Going forward:
    • Will Dany now want to put Sansa on trial? That's a dicey situation for sure.
    • Bran seems like a wild-card here and like someone with still something to do. Otherwise, he could have died by the hand of the Night King, no?
    • I wonder where they'll film the rest. The Red Keep and Kings Landing seem to be in Ruin, but Dragonstone is very bleak & Winterfell doesn't seem right for Danys Demise. Or for her future capital, because she'll need one? Does she take away Storms End from Gendry again?
    • There are also not many characters left, so the final episode will be a lot of talking between Dany, Jon and Tyrion with people like Arya, Davos, Sansa, Bran, Grey Worm, Brienne being a smaller wrench in there. And then one single fight/suprise assasination. And in the end, there's an epilogue scene with Sam ... I guess, this episode 5 will in hindsight be the bigger episode.
    • I would laugh if those scenes in the first episodes is all we get from Yara/Asha.
    In short, it was visually interesting, plot wise I'll better wait for next episode to make a judgement. And of course the next book :)
     
  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think that Greyworm will conveniently kill himself (out of sadness for the loss of Misandei etc). (haven't read that in a spoiler, which is why i write it here again; i wouldn't type any spoiler/supposed spoiler).
    Maybe the other unsullied will just die when GW dies, ala NightKing :D Anyway, i don't think anyone will support Dany.
     
  17. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Yeah, thanks for that. I haven't and don't intend to read the spoilers. Grey Worm really seems to be her only ally left.

    What I also find interesting is that there have been a lot of articles this season like this. It's apparently quite easy to think of more plausible ways for how the battles could have gone and arriving at the same conclusion. That's a bad sign.
     
  18. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Hmm five episodes to turn her mad. Over 6 hours of material. I don't thing that's unrealistic at all considering all the foreshadowing and other peeks that we saw in the first 7 seasons. Actually I would have been surprised if she hadn't turned. Better than seeing it only take 30 minutes (or usually less) in a Marvel Super Hero movie.
     
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  19. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I trust that this is sarcasm. There is no smilie to guide me.
     
  20. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Chieftain

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    No, that wasn't sarcasm at all. :)
     

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