Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.
In what country/century?
Are we talking about the same case / example?
Mine was that if an abused woman (or man, i dun think it's gender related) commits murder on innocents, cos of her terrible past experiences (where this connects to Dany in GoT originally), then i would be against giving her favorable treatment or earlier release opportunity cos i am against excusing terrible crimes with others. I believe that any good person should still be able to differ between wrong and right, and causing so much grief to others and their families means she has taken that same dark path. If you think otherwise, you are free to do so.
That's why we're calling a descent into madness. If she had been a comic book villain earlier, it wouldn't be called a descent. The signs were there.
The fact that she was sympathetic and liked is the only reason people are having a problem with it and feel they were tricked. IMO
No, that's not about a reflection on ourselves being uncomfortable. It seems most of you are just not reading at all what is said and just argue within your head.
I'm not uncomfortable that Dany went tyrant, I'm rolling my eyes because the way she went mad was both rushed, pointless and contradictory with the same foreshadowing that you use as argument. That's something Joffrey or Cersei would do, not Daenerys or Tywin. That's not about being "good" or "bad", that's about "not in character".
Yeah, and this descent was just not believable.
No, THAT is just the pretext you use to dismiss the counter-argument provided. Countless people had predicted that Dany would end up a tyrant, because the signs were there. That's not something new to S8, or S7, or even S6. It was always a seriously considered possibility. That's not why people are angry. People are angry because this was badly done, in a totally not believable way.
I don't disagree with that, I just don't really agree that a modern civilised criminal justice system should administer "punishment without mercy". To anyone.
This is the best series ever. I watched all the seasons in one breath. It is a pity that it has already ended.
Meh... I still like Danny better.
Your avatar makes this snark/sarcasm even more hilarious. Well done
That was legit funny Also well done.
It just occurs to me that Jamie actually did kill Cersei afterall... just not in the way I was hoping for. He led her into the catacombs to her doom and then held her in his arms as the walls crashed in around them... instead of leading her out of the castle to safety.
Now that I think about it ... he led her to her doom using advice from Tyrion on a secret escape route... so in a way... the two of them killed her... just like the gypsy woman said
Hating/being disappointed with this season is a thing now.
To echo a sentiment from earlier in the thread, if so many people dislike it, maybe it really isn't great.
(Also, "subverting expectations" has become a negative meme, which I think is awesome)
Hating in general seems to be a thing now.
Cercei is hateful, and so am i.
Yeah, just a few generations ago, people didn't really hate much.
Well, duh, in real life it's heroes like America that destroy cities.
Not entirely true, the wholesale destruction of a polis was a fairly rare event, far more common was the establishment of suzerainty over a defeated enemy. The Romans were more on the "slaughter men of military age and enslave everyone else" thing, but that was usually only done when a town resisted them particularly annoyingly or rebelled after having previously submitted. The fact is that indiscriminate slaughter is not a way to build power in real life...you needed to allow cities to submit peacefully, destroying cities that were willing to surrender would just provoke the rest to fight you to the death because they have nothing to lose by doing so.
There are many more examples than Carthage just in Roman history. The Romans destroyed every settlement in Epirus and carted off an estimated 150,000 people to slavery. By historical coincidence, at almost the same time they destroyed Carthage they destroyed the city of Corinth, the center of resistance among the Greek city-states. During the Mithridatic Wars Athens was sacked and almost totally destroyed by Sulla. Julius Caesar destroyed the city of Avaricum and massacred the inhabitants during the final phase of the Gallic Wars.
Now that said...
That applied to the Romans as well, and I would argue that their empire lasted because they mostly didn't destroy cities unless there was a good reason to do so. Note also that a sack, even a violent sack, is different than wholesale destruction. By contrast with destroying a city with dragonfire, sacking it in real life involved carrying off loot and slaves to enrich the victors, and mostly didn't result in the city being permanently destroyed or depopulated.
I don't really believe in "the numbers make people right", but at the very least I'd like to point that in the past, the "subverting expectation" moments (Red Wedding, Ned Stark getting the sword, etc.) didn't need thread-long debate to determine if they were actually making sense.
Yeah, you're probably right that it's not really any different.
The Internet just seems to to make it easier for people to make it public.
In the old days, they had to wear hoods.
Yeah maybe calling it standard practice was a stretch I suppose but suffice to say it happened with some regularity.
I think you have mentioned on several occasions you don't watch the show. Some people might call what Dany did indiscriminate slaughter, but it wasn't. She had plenty of reason. The people of Kings Landing, yeah they were beyond particularly annoying, and the fact that they wouldn't surrender actually ended up costing her almost everything. She lost two of her Dragons because of them, one directly and one indirectly. They said they would help her in her fight against the white walkers, but they lied and stayed home while she lost most of her armies. They captured and beheaded her best friend in front of her. Her family was slaughtered in that very city before she was born.
Most importantly, the word was out that her ex lover and someone she deeply loved, Jon, was the true Heir to the throne, and she already knew that the people loved and respected him. Plus all of her most trusted advisers either died, betrayed her, or started to seriously doubt her. She won the battle, the people of kings landing finally surrendered, but she would never be able to rule. She had lost almost everything and was totally alone, and now the last thing she wanted was slipping away. She did what she had to do, as she has done time and time before.
It was a message to the other kingdoms, it was a final act of desperation, it was the logical conclusion of her desire for power and belief in birthright, it was her becoming the worst version of herself and a descent into madness. The mad queen ladies and gentlemen.
"When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!" - Dany, season 2.
Yeah, who could have seen this coming?
I do not watch the show, it is true, I just saw an opportunity to annoy people by talking about classical antiquity at some length, I wasn't trying to contradict your analysis of the show.
My take on this is, woman or man, competent or incompetent, this show is about a bunch of inbred aristocratic nincompoops who all need to be shortened by a head and the real heroes are the peasants whose labor makes all the on-screen antics possible
Sounds like you understand the show better than most people who actually watch it.
I did watch a few episodes in, I think, season 1 (dragged into it by friends), and I didn't enjoy it so didn't watch anymore. I will say I wish someone could do a blockbuster fantasy thing that doesn't use a European setting.
I'll also say that GRRM stole my idea with the White Walkers, my LEGO fantasy universe when I was a kid had a similar concept of an ancient "outside" evil reawakening and forcing the various factions to drop their quarrels to save everything from being destroyed. Except of course that evil was plastic army men, not snow zombies.
I raze cities when AI places them on top of food resources Germans razed Warsaw in 1944 and it was only for Hitler's madness reasons - just saying. Me too I don't see any practical reason for razing KL by Dany - she went mad with frustration imho but I still like her . Im very interested what her interactions with Jon, Arya and Sir Davos (onion knight) gonna be in the next episode. It is rather exciting turn of events I say.
Or one tile away from rivers. Or one tile away from the coast. Or one tile away from capturing any useful resources or food-positive tiles in its big cross. Or...
Well, the Warsaw Uprising had something to do with it. And it wasn't just Hitler's madness, it was a coherent German policy of destroying the Polish nation which they pursued zealously from October 1939 until they were totally thrown out of Poland.
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