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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    By cherry-picking a few lines while ignoring the countless others that go contrary to this opinion ? I didn't find his argument convincing at all, I found it was just the perfect example of why the show is declining (following typical "narrative logic" instead of "actual logic", and a pretty weak narrative logic at that).
    Yes it's pure comic book villainy, based on comic book logic (ie : take whatever pretext is available to justify the plot going the way you wanted it to go, ignoring it would be completely idiotic outside of a comic book). It's a lot like the typical "someone who was a good guy becomes a villain because he blames [whoever is needed] for not being able to save his wife, instead of, you know, blaming the actual murderer" : it makes no actual sense, but provides some sort of pretext so it's deemed acceptable.

    Also, reminder : it's not the fact that Dany ENDS UP a villain which is a problem. It's HOW, HOW FAST and the MANNER of villain she becomes which just break the suspension of disbelief. I would totally buy Dany who starts as a queen full of good intentions and becomes tyrannical because "her way is the good way" and people who disagree start from being "misguided" to being "traitors", and an increasingly repressive regime with increasingly grisly punishment. THAT would both be in-line with her character and provide enough time for the switch to be credible.

    But suddenly razing it all ? It's just not in-character, it's just caricaturaly evil and it's, in the end, simply stupid. The "shock and awe" is already done with her dragon destroying the whole fleet, fortifications and golden company in seconds. Massacring civilians who have nothing to do with anything after she has already won is just going to make her hated by everyone, including her former allies. That's, again, comic book logic, not real one.
     
  2. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    You say she was already mad in S4 when people say that her razing KL is because she just became mad.
    I ask "if she was mad before, where are the examples of wanton destructions layed on innocent non-combattants during these three seasons ?".
     
  3. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    They established she was ruthless but her turn was handled badly.
     
  4. JPetroski

    JPetroski Emperor

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    It's literally the first thing she does with her army.

    "Slay the masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who holds a whip, but harm no child."

    The masters are an entire class of people. I think it's fair to say that some of them were horrible (we certainly witnessed a few first hand) and probably did deserve what happened to them. But it's equally fair to say that they were probably not all guilty and even that those who were guilty were probably not all guilty to such an extent that they deserved to be slaughtered in front of their children. For that matter, their soldiers probably don't have much of a say in their own lives and probably aren't all guilty either. As I stated in an earlier post, we all just gave her a pass here (probably applauded it and watched the scene several times on youtube to boot) because this entire class of people was portrayed as "the bad guys" so we didn't care what happened to them. Neither did she. She had them slaughtered exclusively based on how they looked.
     
  5. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    As you point out, it's the same with the soldiers : plenty of them are probably nice guys just doing this as a living. Dany has always fought the power structures she faced, that's not new and I agree that her tendencies to blindly punish following these power structure without bothering with individual responsibility is a good foreshadowing that she might be a tyrant (that's even why I can easily see her rule becoming oppressive).
    It's not that we considered all of them to be bad (in fact, the Meereen part painfully point that not all Masters were bad, and she even end up understanding this point and politically marrying one of them), it's that we consider that in the context of war and political struggle, it's what's expected.
    I've seen far too many arguments that try to dismiss annoyance as inconsistency in the narrative with the simple pretext of "you just don't like what it says about you", and I find this frankly irritating - I can just as well point "you want it to be true because it would mean you're better than other by being more able to face your own flaws". That's just a battle of dick size.
    My peeve about the serie is not about the size of my dick, it's about how the serie broke what made GoT interesting in the first place to replace it with nonsensical spectacle.

    But she always carefully avoided to hit at the non-fighters. As I said, the comic book logic that "if she can be bad on subject A, she then can be bad in any way required" is what I find utterly stupid in the arguments "it was foreshadowed". Joffrey is evil, Tywin is somewhat evil, they are not evil at all in the same way. Samely, "Dany has the potential to be a tyrant" doesn't mean "Dany has the potential to be ANYTHING as long as it's bad". That's why I repeated that she was shown to be potentially ruthless, but not a blind mass murderer.

    At the very least she would need a good deal of time switching to "there is no innocents so they are all responsible even if they don't fight so I can burn them all" for it to be believable, not the botched work shown in the serie.
     
  6. JPetroski

    JPetroski Emperor

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    I'll totally agree with you that the pacing is disappointing. If seasons 7 and 8 were both 10 episodes instead of 7 and 6, I think it would have helped this a lot.
     
  7. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    So regarding this argument, which I know I shouldn't get involved in but we're all suckers for arguments aren't we...

    I don't like Shakespeare, until someone tells me what's going on, then I love it. I don't really "get" it intuitively, and I have to read other people's gushing praise before I understand how to enjoy Shakespeare. Shakespeare is pretty hard for me, and probably for most people, to understand and enjoy. You have to do work to enjoy it, and you have to read pages and pages of analysis before you can actually learn to enjoy it. I think a lot of people don't like Shakespeare because they haven't done this work, and I think a lot of people would have had similar experiences to me, either in not enjoying it in the first place, or only enjoying it after someone telling them what was good about it.

    I'm not saying GoT is as good as Shakespeare, I'm just saying that having to do a lot of work to figure out how to enjoy something isn't a new thing. I didn't get 2001: A Space Odyssey at all until I watched youtube videos explaining it. I didn't enjoy Taxi Driver until I watched an analysis of it on youtube (I thought it was boring and slow, and I still think it's boring and slow, but now I enjoy it as well, for other reasons). I don't get most works of modern art until I hear someone tell me wtf they're trying to do here. Even more "obviously enjoyable" films, like Old Boy, which I loved, was even more enjoyable after reading analyses of it.

    GoT is the same for me. I love GoT on my own terms, but I also love reading fan theories, watching youtube videos, going on the subreddits and twitter and forums and reading all that stuff too. I love reading what other people think of GoT. When two people watch a film, they see two different films. What we see when we watch a film is our own unique interpretation of that film, and I love reading other people's interpretations of that same film I just watched. Sometimes, when I read it, I change my own mind. It's happened with Shakespeare, with 2001, with Taxi Driver, with the entire Matrix trilogy (which is actually amazing again btw, fight me irl).

    Yeah, lots of people don't like it, and maybe that means it's bad by some metric. But I genuinely believe that people can enjoy it if they are open-minded about the way that they interpret it, and aren't wedded to their own, personal, initial interpretation of a work. I believe that's basically true about all art, from Taylor Swift to Jackson Pollock. I think people are happier when they learn to enjoy things, and I think one of the values in all this pointless chatter on the internet is to teach people how to enjoy things.
     
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  8. Snerk

    Snerk Smeghead

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    Besides the really lame ending of ep3 I think the season has been ok. It's in full on tying up loose ends mode and it's only got six episodes so the result is predictably and kinda necessarily lackluster. Don't get me wrong, there's been too many tropes and better writing and decisions could have been made, but some of it has been pretty cool too. ASOIAF strengths has always been worldbuilding, mysteries, open questions and open story arcs, I'm sure the books will struggle with achieving a satisfactory conclusion too. Should be better though. I still have no idea how the tv-series will end and that's pretty great.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  9. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Regarding that: https://qz.com/quartzy/1618479/data-show-game-of-thrones-is-taking-a-historic-critical-nosedive

    That's harsh. Apparently, what the producers can't do is sticking the landing, though that is exactly what they are doing. Arriving at the destination imagined by GRRM, but without laying the groundwork to do so (due to not enough time, too complicated and as its still unclear whether GRRM can do it himself.)
     
  10. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    That's pretty much it.
     
  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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  12. AdamCrock

    AdamCrock Polish Pudding

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    I agree that Tyrion is a good candidate he's got more common sense than any other. The blacksmith guy whatshisname Robert's Baratheon bastard son is another good call imho.
    If I were Jon I would probably go beyond the wall to live with the wildlings. He got a girl there for a short while and it was a good time for him.
     
  13. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I actually agree with you. This was just an opportunity to throw the "if many people think x, then it's probably true" argument back at some fans who employed it a few episodes ago when most people still unqualifiedly liked the show. Learning to enjoy something more can apply to both 'high' art and controversial art, but some people think it's intellectual elitism until the shoe is in the other foot.
     
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  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I unqualified love my wife but she is far from perfect. I can criticize her and love her at the same time.
     
  15. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Those who unqualifiedly loved the show part are not at fault. Those who claim that nothing else is necessary other than mass enjoyment, and that asking for more is intellectual elitism, are.
     
  16. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    There will always be those that look down their noses at the unwashed masses. :p
     
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  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    FWIW there's is a change.org petition in process to redo Season 8 here:

    http://chng.it/Sds7rfFG9j

    Ha...seriously doubt it will do anything but send a message. It has close to 500,000 signatures which is pretty impressive.
     
  18. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I suspect the message HBO will care about is that the series 8 viewing figures are higher than series 7.
     
  19. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I read that last week's episode had over 18 million viewers; a new record for HBO.
     
  20. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Best part of this show are the memes
     

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