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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Snerk

    Snerk Smeghead

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    The dragon fire works a lot differently in the books than in the tv series. In the books it can burn hot enough to melt stone if the dragon big and old enough. But in the show it seems like it does more explosive damage than anything. The fire will completely shatter stone construction. Kinda weird imo.
     
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  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Explosions provide more viewer satisfaction that melting stone.
     
  3. Snerk

    Snerk Smeghead

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    Perhaps to some. I think it looks off.
     
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  4. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    You're Norwegian and in Norway melting is part of the culture. Elsewhere, change is more explosive and expected. :D
     
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  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    And I'm saying that her "madness" is not pyromania, it's megalomania. Her madness is her deformed sense of self, her obsession with destiny. Her madness is how deeply she has bought into her own myth. The madness was wholly present in Meereen, but everyone else there shared in it- even the Sons of the Harpy, insofar as the fanaticism of their opposition affirmed her as something greater than a mere military strongman, or at least she could understand it as such. In Wessos, this myth is simply absent, and she is seen for what she is, another power-hungry warlord. We've already seen how this tortured her in the North, when the response of the locals was guarded and suspicious, and how she responds to that hostility by retreating into the person of the avenging dragon queen. She can deal with terror, which speaks to awe and wonder, which affirms her as something transcendent, but ordinary fear and suspicion, as if she was just another foreign brigand, is intolerable. Seeing an entire city recoil from her in revulsion pushed her to lash out, to affirm her myth in a grand act of destruction. Razing King's Landing puts her narrative back in control; renders the simple act of occupying a city into a mythical act of destruction, befitting a destined conqueror.

    I'm not saying that this was perfectly developed. The road from somebody who is capable of burning King's Landing to somehow is actually doing it should still have taken more than a couple of episodes. But I don't think this is something that happened all of a sudden. This is who she has been, or at least how she has been becoming, for a long time.
     
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  6. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    there are some stone fortresses/structures in England that appear melted
     
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Oh, that's just Prince Phillip.
     
  8. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    And the award for best GoT adapted Royal Family burn goes to...Tfish
     
  9. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Look, it's nice and all, but it really just sounds like a pretty contrived post-rationalization after the fact. If fiction teached me something, it's that ANYTHING can be rationalized by the fandom when they try hard enough.
    It still just doesn't flow naturally from the rest of the show and is shoehorned to fit the development the writers wanted, like the entire season.
    That's basically what most people who dislike this episode have said, myself included, even if I also disagree with the "comic book logic" that I described above.
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I'm thinking that they should have had Euron shoot down Drogon (instead of Rhaegal) while Denaerys was riding him, and then let him capture the Dragon Queen. Her dragon might escape and heal enough to be part of the destruction of King's Landing, but first Dany would be subjected to the maddening trauma of being the captive of a madman who would rather try to break her himself than turn her over to Cersei.

    King Aerys II showed hints of madness as a youth, which people recognized in retrospect, but his mind was never addled enough for anyone to notice until after he was rescued from being a prisoner during the Defiance at Duskendale. Part of it was PTSD, but part of it was that his Hand Tywin Lannister called his captors' bluff and declared that they should go ahead and kill Aerys as his heir was safe and would make be a far better ruler. It would be an interesting parallel if Jon's claim to the throne was made public not because Varys feared Dany might be mad, but because Dany had been captured, he feared she would be killed soon, and her forces needed a new figurehead to rally around rather than bend to Cersei.

    Euron of course should have been revealed as more like his book self than the shallow show adaptation depicted so far. He is not just a pirate but a sorcerer who is addicted to Shade of the Evening, a hallucinogen which the Warlocks of Qarth believe causes prophetic dreams and other magic powers. Dany's visions in season 2 were from a small taste of this potion, but Euron likes to drink it in even larger quantities than the Warlocks do and enjoys torturing prisoners by forcing them to overdose. If Dany were his prisoner he would almost certainly force her to drink more of this stuff. He'd probably rape her too, to provide a child he would wish to sacrifice.

    It would be hard to blame Dany for being a Mad Queen after suffering all of that.
     
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  11. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    My friend pointed me to a popular tweet from 9 days ago that has finally been published in WIRED as of a few hours ago.
    It explains a lot of the "off" feeling of the last few seasons.
    https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-plotters-vs-pantsers/

    I really like the article's conclusions. :)
    The writers' gave themselves a firm timeline and reverse engineered what needed to happen to get there, and then forced the characters to do it.
     
  12. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Finally got around to watching episode 8. Some brilliant scenes, weak story I felt. They are great directors but not great writers.

    Things I liked (or didn't dislike that other people did):
    • Jamies going back for Cercei seemed entirely fitting to me.
    • The fight between the Mountain and the Hound.
    • Greyworm's actions seemed quite fitting to me. He wanted revenge, only loyalty to Dany held him back, once she started burning the city nothing held him back.
    • The army going wild was quite realistic. Should probably have been more rape and looting but this is TV.
    Things I didn't like:
    • The whole mad dragonqueen was much too fast.
    • Scorpions useless now, deadly before.
    • Sheer destructiveness of dragon fire. Compare KL after the attack to Harranhal which seemed to survive 3 dragons more intact.
    • Arya being useless. She gets to the Red Keep then changes her mind. Also how did she survive?
    I suppose all thats left is who kills Dany and who gets to be king. My money is on Arya and Gendry respectively.
     
  13. Imaus

    Imaus Prince

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    My bet is that Jon and Davos pull their forces out of the city. Notice how only Dothraki and Unsullied are cheering for Dany. Tyrion and the rest of the realm trickles into and around KL's, setting up tents and paying homage to Dany, but in reality, a big plot is forming up around the city, almost organically because of what Varys did. Everyone is now not fearful of Dany. They hate her; they only bow because she has a Dragon; and so go on playing the little homage games and speak loosely with their lips but grow hard in their hearts.

    Arya meets up with Gendry and they find a unburnt, maybe unassembled Scorpion. The plan falls in place. They kill Drogon; and the rest are literally small fry. It'll be tough, it'll be bloody, but it can be done - as long as Drogon dies. Arya or Gendry takes the Scorpion, sets it up in a house or somesuch, and shoots Drogon in the eye.

    Bam, Dragon dead. Dany, the Unsullied, and the Dothraki are nothing more than a mass of seasoned, but depleted, warriors. The combined might of the Seven Kingdoms falls on them and cuts them down. Dany is in the remains of the throne room with Greyworm (and has been told about the wildfyre stocks under the city her father placed) and decides to blow up the whole city. Jon or even Tyrion kills her then, alluding to Jaime and the Mad King.

    Show's basically over then. Gendry might show off his talent and valour in battle, and since he's a Baratheon and Jon doesn't want to rule - and might had pledged himself to him - they all decide fudge it, better the devil you know, and anoint him as lord. Tyrion becomes the head of House Lannister, Jon the new Hand, Sansa the Warden of the North. Bronn might be given Dorne if Dorne doesn't rebel - what's better than a castle? Being a Lord/Warden. Stuff like that.
     
  14. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Yeah, and the masses dislike the show now so don't be that guy.
     
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    So your objection is just "nah sounds fake"? I don't feel like I'm getting a fair shake, here!

    I don't disagree that the development is rushed. I can argue all this in hindsight, but it shouldn't really be left to hindsight. But I think you have to be willfully blind to how Daenerys has behaved over the previous three to four seasons to see her megalomania as something that only emerged post-Battle of Winterfell. Tht megalomania is what drove her to set herself up as the absolute ruler of Meereen, to start a crusade against slavery, to invade Westeros in the first place. She's spent the whole season telling us that she was going to burn King's Landing to the ground, we already knew that she was somebody who is comfortable speaking in those terms, that the gesture appealed to her: the surprise was only that she really did it. That's a considerably smaller step for her character to make than I think you're allowing, and while I agree that it could have used more time, it doesn't require a sudden turn to villainy, or even a "descent into madness" lasting only this season.

    I do agree that the extent of destruction is somewhat extravagant. They overplayed their hand with the character. It would have made more sense, I think, more in keeping with what she has told us so far, to have simply destroyed the Red Keep, while her troops pillaged the city. But the gesture is fundamentally the same, and requires the same "madness". The objection that the story-as written prompts is "I did not expect this megalomania to do that", not "I did not expect this character to be a megalomaniac".
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  16. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    The main criticism IS that it makes no sense/happens too fast/is shoehorned to bring the story where the writers want it. So yeah, "sounds fake". I don't see why you consider it not a fair shake, as it was the original complaint to begin with :confused:
    As I said, the comic book logic that "if she can be bad on subject A, she then can be bad in any way required" is what I find utterly stupid in the arguments "it was foreshadowed". Joffrey is evil, Tywin is somewhat evil, they are not evil at all in the same way. Samely, "Dany has the potential to be a tyrant" doesn't mean "Dany has the potential to be ANYTHING as long as it's bad". That's why I repeated that she was shown to be potentially ruthless, but not a blind mass murderer.
    No, it doesn't require the same madness to destroy a keep where your foes and their hired hands are and to raze a city where the population live. See above the "comic book logic".
    I would have found logical her aiming for the Red Keep, but not having the troops ravage the city. But then it wouldn't have made her villainous enough, which is probably the reason why the writers didn't made her do it and shoehorned her into going berserk - and which is exactly the "sounds fake" problem that this whole episode has been about.
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    This is a spicy one
     
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  18. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Warlord

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    As the kids say, GoT memes are spicy AF.
     
  19. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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  20. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    A lot of good stuff there.
    But I don't see it totally black and white, GRRM good, D&D bad.
    The rushing needed to finish it did cause some of the problems.
     
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