Given that likely only a handful of people in the Stannis army are followers of the Red God, is it that evident that he would force mass conversion if he becomes king? Afaik not even his daughter is a convert (well maybe officially she is, not sure), and Davos doesn't seem to be in any way.
Game of Thrones Season 5 discussion thread
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Given that likely only a handful of people in the Stannis army are followers of the Red God, is it that evident that he would force mass conversion if he becomes king? Afaik not even his daughter is a convert (well maybe officially she is, not sure), and Davos doesn't seem to be in any way.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
Who knows what would happen as to Tommen if Cersei and Jamie's dalliances were made public? Certainly illegitimacy isn't a total bar to being a noble as demonstrated by the Boltons nor does incest prohibit kingship.
The Faith of the Seven may well not ascribe the sins of the parents to children. Which would be an interesting result if the Sparrow exposes Cersei and Jamie but the laws of the church do not demand Tommen's removal. Obviously Tommen's status among the nobles would be irreparably damaged, but it is hard to say who would actually try to oust him (at least who would who isn't already).
As to the uncle's role as Hand, no one seems to want that job. He could well be serving out of loyalty for the time being and want to return to Castlerly Rock as soon as possible. Heck, for all we know he might ignore the summons to be Hand.
Having Cersei exposed could even support the uncle's goals. As it stands, it is unclear who actually is the heir to Casterly Rock. By exposing Jamie and Cersei it would allow the uncle to cement his own local power and possibly appoint an heir that is from his line rather than Tywin's.
As to why Tommen hasn't sent troops in, the alchemist told Cersei that Tommen is in a deep depression. That said, the alchemist also sounds like he's switched sides to the Sparrow so he cold well be lying as well. Maybe Tommen doesn't know what's up.
The Faith of the Seven may well not ascribe the sins of the parents to children. Which would be an interesting result if the Sparrow exposes Cersei and Jamie but the laws of the church do not demand Tommen's removal. Obviously Tommen's status among the nobles would be irreparably damaged, but it is hard to say who would actually try to oust him (at least who would who isn't already).
As to the uncle's role as Hand, no one seems to want that job. He could well be serving out of loyalty for the time being and want to return to Castlerly Rock as soon as possible. Heck, for all we know he might ignore the summons to be Hand.
Having Cersei exposed could even support the uncle's goals. As it stands, it is unclear who actually is the heir to Casterly Rock. By exposing Jamie and Cersei it would allow the uncle to cement his own local power and possibly appoint an heir that is from his line rather than Tywin's.
As to why Tommen hasn't sent troops in, the alchemist told Cersei that Tommen is in a deep depression. That said, the alchemist also sounds like he's switched sides to the Sparrow so he cold well be lying as well. Maybe Tommen doesn't know what's up.
MacAttack
Just the tip
Well, Tommen would be an illegitimate king, not just because he is a product of incest or born out of wedlock (a bastard), but the fact that he is 100% Lannister and 0% Baratheon, which takes him out of the line of succession to the throne and Stannis should be the king. All Tommen would have is a claim to Casterly Rock.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
Assuming that's the case, how would that change anything? Who in the Seven Kingdoms will change their allegiance based on that?
There's little indication that most of the GoT world believes in divine right (aside from the Faith of the One God as applied to Stannis). Instead, ruling is a question of political and military power. As such, the Baratheons have only as much of a claim to the throne as they can exercise, and Stannis is trying his best to get to the Iron Throne already. Few people in power are going to suddenly turn to support Stannis merely because Tommen is illegitimate.
aelf
Ashen One
Spoiler :
Perhaps we can get a Fall spinoff sitcom "Throne Alone" where Tommen does his best Kevin McCallister.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
Thorgalaeg
Deity
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Centuries before this story took place, the Faith of the Seven considered incest to be such a serious crime that it demanded the death penalty for both sexual partners and for any of their offspring.
Even after officially converting, the Targaryens cared more about preserving the purity of their Valyrian blood (which was thought essential for controlling their dragons) than about religious precepts. They continued to openly practice incest. The Faith Militant tried to depose them for this, but was crushed militarily and disbanded. The Targaryens ended the practice of killing children born of incest, and would not allow anyone in their royal family to be punished for incest in any way.
Bastards in Westeros (including those born of incest) have absolutely zero right to inherit anything, unless and until the King himself uses his prerogative to issue a Bill of Legitimacy. That allows a bastard to be treated the same as a true-born son or daughter.
Stannis remains fairly tolerant of some who stick with the Faith of the Seven, but both his wife and Melisandra frequently pressure him to take a hardline position and stamp them out. He might not want to burn anyone alive for their refusal to convert, but he would almost certainly raze the major Septs, burn the idols, and confiscate property from the church.
Kevan does not really want Casterly Rock. He likes his own castle better. He was always happier living in his big brother's shadow.
Jaime gave up any claim to his inheritance the moment he swore his oath to the Kingsguard. The terms of that oath are pretty much the same as the oath sworn by the Nightswatch.
Legally, Tyrion Lannister was Tywin's true heir. Tywin refused to publicly acknowledge this, but legally he had no choice. Tyrion may technically be the Lord of Casterly Rock now, although he was of course sentences to death and is a fugitive so most people would consider that rank to be forfeit.
Upon the death of the last son, inheritance passes to the daughters. That would make Cersei ruler of the Westerlands. Kevan wanted her to go back to Casterly Rock to rule there in person (she could do much less damage there than in Kings Landing), but she would rather leave him there as Castellan.
If all of Tywin's children were eliminated, then Kevan would inherit. Upon his death Casterly Rock would have passed to Lancel, but Lancel's vows would make it pass to Willem. Willem however was the hostage killed by Rickard Karstark (which led to King Rob executing his disobedient Bannerman), so the title would actually pass to the youngest son Martyn.
Even after officially converting, the Targaryens cared more about preserving the purity of their Valyrian blood (which was thought essential for controlling their dragons) than about religious precepts. They continued to openly practice incest. The Faith Militant tried to depose them for this, but was crushed militarily and disbanded. The Targaryens ended the practice of killing children born of incest, and would not allow anyone in their royal family to be punished for incest in any way.
Bastards in Westeros (including those born of incest) have absolutely zero right to inherit anything, unless and until the King himself uses his prerogative to issue a Bill of Legitimacy. That allows a bastard to be treated the same as a true-born son or daughter.
Stannis remains fairly tolerant of some who stick with the Faith of the Seven, but both his wife and Melisandra frequently pressure him to take a hardline position and stamp them out. He might not want to burn anyone alive for their refusal to convert, but he would almost certainly raze the major Septs, burn the idols, and confiscate property from the church.
Kevan does not really want Casterly Rock. He likes his own castle better. He was always happier living in his big brother's shadow.
Jaime gave up any claim to his inheritance the moment he swore his oath to the Kingsguard. The terms of that oath are pretty much the same as the oath sworn by the Nightswatch.
Legally, Tyrion Lannister was Tywin's true heir. Tywin refused to publicly acknowledge this, but legally he had no choice. Tyrion may technically be the Lord of Casterly Rock now, although he was of course sentences to death and is a fugitive so most people would consider that rank to be forfeit.
Upon the death of the last son, inheritance passes to the daughters. That would make Cersei ruler of the Westerlands. Kevan wanted her to go back to Casterly Rock to rule there in person (she could do much less damage there than in Kings Landing), but she would rather leave him there as Castellan.
If all of Tywin's children were eliminated, then Kevan would inherit. Upon his death Casterly Rock would have passed to Lancel, but Lancel's vows would make it pass to Willem. Willem however was the hostage killed by Rickard Karstark (which led to King Rob executing his disobedient Bannerman), so the title would actually pass to the youngest son Martyn.
I think it makes more sense if the show will just follow the plot of the book here and not press the illegitimate Tommen thing. Unless Kevan or someone else is preventing him, it speaks pretty poorly of Tommen that he is making no attempt at freeing his mother and wife. Bad as Joffrey was at least he would have done something. Couldn't Tommen go to Olena Tyrell for advice or something?
Martin is not very good with scientific stuff, or scale, or managing the series. Feed him to the dragons and choose a new writer for this
If you don't like anything about it why wouldn't you just pick something different to start?
What about an Uncle Lannister-Bolton alliance?
They could call their state Kevan-Roose.
(thank you, i'll be here all night
)
MacAttack
Just the tip
See MagisterCultuum's post, but just to add to that, outside the books and as discussed earlier, public opinion is far less effective in the GOT/ASOIF world than it is in our world (reality).
I'm not so sure. If you remember the first season, Sean Bean's entire plan - for which he ended up being killed - was to make Joffrey's parentage known, and that was obviously something that he and plenty of other powerful people thought would cause some serious trouble. Of course, you could argue that the situation has changed greatly since Season One.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
As Varys said, "Power resides wherever men believe power resides."
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
As you say, the question is how would the revelation of Tommen's illegitimacy affect things now. The Iron Islands and Stormlands are already in revolt and this wouldn't cause either to join the other's banner. This revelation, alone, isn't going to break the King's alliances with the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands and cause them to rise up in rebellion. Those kingdoms might well join a revolt but are unlikely to lead one. The Reach is more likely to react based on how the Tyrell's scions presently imprisoned by the Sparrow rather than what happens with Cersei, and once the hostages are free the Tyrell-Lannister pact is in the toilet anyway. Dorne might use this as a causi belli, but it is really, really doubtful that Martell wants to go war w/ the throne (but the irony of Dorne going to war over a bastard inheriting would delicious).
MC's discussion of the inheritance traditions in Westeros is helpful, but it disregards the fact that GoT is a story about the turning of an age. That started with Robert's Rebellion, and the people in Westeros are still adjusting. Simply put, the old rules may no longer apply. Even if they do apply, the question of who would enforce them remains.
Hardhome battle isn't even much of a deviation from the book. Jon being there is the main divergence and that's just for storytelling ease.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Prince Doran Martel of Dorne does want a war with the Iron throne, but not until reinforcements arrive from Essos. He is a strong Targaryen loyalist, but is also prudent enough to keep that a secret and not risk any war that his army alone is too weak to win.
The Sand Snakes and their supporters are more reckless, an would like to seize on any casus belli than can get.
Currently it seems like power is shifting towards the Faith rather than noble dynasties. If not for the threat of the Red God's followers, The High Sparrow might well prefer to just abolish the monarchy and restore things to how they operated before Aegon's Conquest. The Andal kingdoms may have all been nominally independent, but they were united in recognizing the same institution of religious authority. The High Septon once wielded as much political power as ever held by any medieval Pope, and could again. If it weren't for the fact that the Sparrows are most popular among the poor of Kings Landing, it might even make sense to move the center of the Faith back to the Starry Sept at Old Town. Moving south for the Winter would probably be a good idea. The time in Kings Landing could be like the "Babylonian Captivity of the Church," when the Pope was forced to reside in Avignon rather than Rome. The Starry Sept might still be more ostentatious than the new High Sparrow likes, but it is much more tasteful rather than gaudy like Baelor's sept.
The Sand Snakes and their supporters are more reckless, an would like to seize on any casus belli than can get.
Currently it seems like power is shifting towards the Faith rather than noble dynasties. If not for the threat of the Red God's followers, The High Sparrow might well prefer to just abolish the monarchy and restore things to how they operated before Aegon's Conquest. The Andal kingdoms may have all been nominally independent, but they were united in recognizing the same institution of religious authority. The High Septon once wielded as much political power as ever held by any medieval Pope, and could again. If it weren't for the fact that the Sparrows are most popular among the poor of Kings Landing, it might even make sense to move the center of the Faith back to the Starry Sept at Old Town. Moving south for the Winter would probably be a good idea. The time in Kings Landing could be like the "Babylonian Captivity of the Church," when the Pope was forced to reside in Avignon rather than Rome. The Starry Sept might still be more ostentatious than the new High Sparrow likes, but it is much more tasteful rather than gaudy like Baelor's sept.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
I didn't know about Dorne being a Targaryen loyalist. That just means that what happens with Cersei will be even less likely to affect Dorne as Doren will wait for the invasion from the east.
As to the rise of the second estate, that's true for King's Landing, but it will be interesting to see what happens in the hinterlands. There are rumors of Sparrows being out in the rural areas (and I think that's really where they came from), but we haven't seen much happening outside of King's Landing.
Also, it will be interesting to see how the Faith of the Seven, as it rises to power, treats the followers of the Old Gods and the One God.
Personally, I don't think the High Sparrow is interested in changing political stuff as much as enforcing his view of the faith on others. I think he's letting the chips fall where they may as it comes to secular power. Which may still result in significant political upheavals and the Faith coming into power.
As to the rise of the second estate, that's true for King's Landing, but it will be interesting to see what happens in the hinterlands. There are rumors of Sparrows being out in the rural areas (and I think that's really where they came from), but we haven't seen much happening outside of King's Landing.
Also, it will be interesting to see how the Faith of the Seven, as it rises to power, treats the followers of the Old Gods and the One God.
Personally, I don't think the High Sparrow is interested in changing political stuff as much as enforcing his view of the faith on others. I think he's letting the chips fall where they may as it comes to secular power. Which may still result in significant political upheavals and the Faith coming into power.
RobAnybody
Emperor
- Joined
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Tommen proposed a military assault to Cersei (before she was imprisoned, too) in order to free Margaery, & Cersei said "You know who would be the first casualty of that", implying that would lead to the Sparrows killing Margaery if he tried to attack them, so he probably thinks a military assault is off the table to free either one of them. Now he thinks his wife & his mom would die if he tried it.
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