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Gamespeed and instant yields imbalance

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Theral, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Theral

    Theral Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
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    Hello,

    First off, I do love what you've done with civ5. It's a whole new game and I'm loving it to pieces, been playing nothing else for about 2 weeks! Now, to the topic of gamespeed and instant yields.

    I do like to play slower games, I never play on standard, most of the games I end up playing on epic, and I also had one marathon game in those two weeks (which I ended somewhere before industrial era; immortal AI is bloody brutal in this mod!). However, I do think that the policy trees being the way they are, all those instant yields (notably in the opening policies) make those trees strictly inferior to tradition. This is in my opinion objectively true on marathon, while on epic I had a good time with the liberty(think it's called differently?) still, despite it likely performing less well than it is designed to be (around standard).

    The thing is, on marathon, all yield-per-turn are king. Border growth takes so much longer to pop, and population takes so much longer to increase, that those instant yields pale in comparison to the per turn yields offered from tradition.

    Basically everything that has instant yields becomes less viable on marathon, because the condition for the yield to trigger will be spread out over many more turns and allow for about three times as many yields-per-turn to happen in the meantime.

    There appears to be only one religious tenet that adjusts it's instant yield to gamespeed (iirc the instant faith yield when expanding great people?). I found this very confusing, not because I think adjusting it to gamespeed is bad - quite the opposite, I wish it was the case for every instant yield - but because it felt so randomly placed on just one single religious tenet.

    So I am wondering whether it would be a good idea to adjust all instant yields to gamespeed (which also should affect UA, for carthage for example - 200 gold on marathon is much less valuable than on standard) to keep the balance intended alive on marathon speeds?

    Perhaps I'm just missing something, perhaps I'm flat out wrong for some reason I cannot see; if that's the case, please let me know. But as far as I can tell, instant yields are much better on quick speed and much worse on marathon.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I thought the instant bonus scales with game speed too, but I might be wrong.
     
  3. grmagne

    grmagne Warlord

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    Me too, but now I'm not sure either.

    The tricky one to scale might be the authority tree. A marathon game has a lot more protracted wars than a quick game does, and the player will receive lots of extra culture and science from all those kills. But are there enough extra wars in a marathon game to ignore game speed scaling? I doubt it.
     
  4. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

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    Instant Yields to scale with the game speed. And you didn't mention what effect exactly doesn't scale with the speed.
     
  5. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    They do scale with game speed though -at least most of them does. There might be some exceptions that do not scale with game speed, in which case Gasobe ought to be informed via bug fix reports. Oftentimes, the scaling is not in favour of Epic/Marathon though - as is in the case of nearly all uneven numbers.

    On Epic the gimmies are 50% bigger but the game hates irregular numbers (or whatever it's called in Americano), so 5 scales into a pure 7 (instead of 7.5). After era scaling, instead of 15 you will be getting 14 - or at least the pop ups said so in medieval (after era scaling, which doubles Jelling yields) when I was playing Denmark last time.
     
  6. Theral

    Theral Chieftain

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    Thanks for the answers! I think I might just have been misinformed then; seeing that some things do say they scale with gamespeed, while others did not say it, led me to believe that only those things actually scaled. After testing it and actually looking for it, it seems that most obvious things from the early game do indeed scale; such as the progress bonuses (although like enrico said, rounded down) and carthage bonus for founding cities.

    So the situation seems to be that everything is supposed to scale with gamespeed, if something doesn't then this should be reported as a bug, yes?

    However I would suggest to remove all remaining instances of "scales with gamespeed" from the descriptions (two pantheon beliefs still have that in the description); it's confusing that it's explicitly stated for some while not for others, leading people like me to be terribly mistaken! (and it's sometimes not easy to check, as not all bonuses actually tell you the yield amount but just type - which I think should not be the case. It's hard to make a decision based on lack of information).
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    We are used to it, so we don't pay much attention to tooltips. It's good that someone brings our attention againg to what should be obvious.
     
  8. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    In principle, all instant yields should scale with speed.
    Sometimes it is missed, in which case you should report it at Github.
    If you play Marathon, it is quite easy to spot: If a yield is not a multiple of 3, it probably doesn't scale.
    For example, the event "Dramatic Masterpiece" let's you chose between 600 Culture or 200 Great Writer points. The latter is probably a mistake.
     
  9. BliTTzZ

    BliTTzZ Warlord

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    I think that GP points don't scale as other yields with gamespeed. The amount of points generated with specialists don't scale either, if I remember correctly.
     
  10. ColonelCarter

    ColonelCarter Chieftain

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    Per turn yields shouldn't scale, because you have X% the turns to earn X% of the points required. Instant yields should, including Great People Points.

    Example: On Standard, the first Great Musician takes 150 GMP to produce. On Quick, it only takes 100 GMP. Quick is scaled to be 2/3 of Standard, so this makes sense.
    The random event "Nomadic Incursion" has an option to gain 1 citizen and 100 Great Musician Points in a city. However, the Great People Points from events don't scale with gamespeed for whatever reason, so the first time you pick the event on Quick, you will instantly get a Great Musician next turn. (only really useful with Tradition, but w/e) If you pick it on Standard, you will get the 100 GMP, and still need to produce 50 GMP through guilds/specialists to pop out a musician in that city. It gives even worse ratios for Epic and Marathon.
     
  11. merill

    merill Prince

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    I think events don't scale because you should get more events in epic speed than in normal speed.
     
  12. ColonelCarter

    ColonelCarter Chieftain

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    But the other yields for the events do scale with gamespeed. The "Nomadic Incursion" offers 67 Border Growth on Quick but 100 on Normal.
     
  13. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    Also, events like nomadic incursion or dramatic masterpiece will trigger once per city, regardless of speed. So the instant yields should scale.
     
  14. merill

    merill Prince

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    Seems i'm wrong and events are scaling. (so same amount of events for every game).

    I will check "Dramatic Masterpiece" and "Nomadic Incursion".

    edit1:
    Dramatic masterpiece: It's weird.
    Code:
    ('CITY_EVENT_AMPHITHEATER_NEW_DRAMA_CHOICE_2','YIELD_CULTURE',100)
    ('CITY_EVENT_AMPHITHEATER_NEW_DRAMA_CHOICE_3','SPECIALIST_WRITER',100)
    It should be the same amount for culture and GW points... 300

    note: this event like many, had 'era scaling' activated, be sure to compare at the same era.

    edit2: does the cost scale? The amount you paid is right?

    edit2: untested dll with fix: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0hygFT4YYf7Nnl2Ty1TaUhBSk0
     
  15. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    I have checked it in my current game (latest patch version)
    Medieval age (so x2 multiplier) and marathon speed (x3 multiplier).

    I have the option between 600 Culture or 200 Great Writer points. Apparently culture scales with both, but GW points only with era.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Are you sure it isn't just the text not scaling? I may have missed a scaler.

    G
     
  17. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    The idea that just the text is wrong crossed my mind, but I haven't been able to check it until now.
     

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