Gaming the rising cost of MPs

Bostock

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Apr 28, 2008
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How often do you delay Hunting or hooking metals to increase the span when you can build warriors instead of archers?

Delay Feudalism so you can build archers instead of chariots?

Delay Guilds so you can build chariots instead of longbowmen?

Etc...

And how strongly does the impending arrival of a such a tech affect your builds? (e.g. a mass wave of chariot builds just before Guilds)
 
Generally I build cutting-edge units to invade a neighbor. When the units have been around for a while and their upgrade is coming soon, I switch their role to defense/military police.

If I am planning to be a peace for a long time, I skip HBR or Hunting for cheaper police.
 
I'm not the biggest fan of producing cheap, crappy units for the sole purpose of keeping my citizens happy. I'd rather spend a few more hammers on better units and then go kill someone with them.
 
I'm not the biggest fan of producing cheap, crappy units for the sole purpose of keeping my citizens happy. I'd rather spend a few more hammers on better units and then go kill someone with them.

What if you've just had a phase of quick expansion and the cheap units let you more quickly reach even the usually-needed 1/city so you can go back to building better units? You don't need Guilds to build Macemen... nor Hunting to build Axes...
 
I'm not the biggest fan of producing cheap, crappy units for the sole purpose of keeping my citizens happy. I'd rather spend a few more hammers on better units and then go kill someone with them.

And in the event you have plenty of land to settle and a difficult-to-rush but safe neighbor, or you're isolated?
 
Generally I build cutting-edge units to invade a neighbor. When the units have been around for a while and their upgrade is coming soon, I switch their role to defense/military police.

If I am planning to be a peace for a long time, I skip HBR or Hunting for cheaper police.

HBR? I don't think that obsoletes anything?
 
And in the event you have plenty of land to settle and a difficult-to-rush but safe neighbor, or you're isolated?

Well, obviously that would put a damper on my strategy. If I'm isolated and am forced to rely on HR for happiness, then I'll build tons of siege units and tech towards astronomy (or re-roll.) If I have tons of land to settle and a difficult to rush but safe neighbor, I'll build tons of siege and then go kill him. Then tech towards astronomy. Either way, if I'm forced to use HR for my happiness, I'd rather have useful units.
 
Actually I just started doing this. Why waste hammers during a REX phase on building units that'll never see battle? I used to create a barracks as one of my first city builds, but I'm finding I push those back for the same reason.
 
As far as I'm concerned archers are not cheap crappy units. They are cheap yes but they are not really crappy considering how much they cost. IMO they have enough advantages over warriors that I would rather spam archers than warriors for HR happiness. At least if you get attacked archers can be useful for something before longbows hit the scene.

I never give much thought to delaying a tech just to be able to build cheap garrison units. IMO the reasons to pick techs are usually going to be far greater than this minor reason to avoid techs.
 
As far as I'm concerned archers are not cheap crappy units. They are cheap yes but they are not really crappy considering how much they cost. IMO they have enough advantages over warriors that I would rather spam archers than warriors for HR happiness. At least if you get attacked archers can be useful for something before longbows hit the scene.

I never give much thought to delaying a tech just to be able to build cheap garrison units. IMO the reasons to pick techs are usually going to be far greater than this minor reason to avoid techs.

I'll take archers over warriors any day, too, but usually they're a last-ditch, aww-crap-i'm-getting-attacked-by-barbs-with-metals-and-I-don't-have-any-of-my-own sort of thing. If I have copper, my garrisons are going to be axemen. I think part of this comes from an irrational neurosis of needing to upgrade all my early cr3's to cr3 rifles.
 
Sign me up for the axe garrison team. If i use warriors í will need to build better units anyway to keep the power rating at meaningful levels, so id rather just make them from the start and not have to worry about being attacked since my power rating will be higher and my garrison doesnt completely suck if it does happen.
 
Sign me up for the axe garrison team. If i use warriors í will need to build better units anyway to keep the power rating at meaningful levels, so id rather just make them from the start and not have to worry about being attacked since my power rating will be higher and my garrison doesnt completely suck if it does happen.

I know you play above noble, so you aren't going to be keeping power rating "at meaningful levels". It's not a gray scale - it's an on/off switch for the AI in terms of power, and you aren't going to get 150% of shaka's power with axe spam and still tech decently!

Also, if you're using the axes for garrisons, they are locked there or you're in :mad: anyway due to moving them to your borders. Unless you're playing humans garrisons do practically nothing other than border cities or :).
 
How often do you delay Hunting or hooking metals to increase the span when you can build warriors instead of archers?

Delay Feudalism so you can build archers instead of chariots?

Delay Guilds so you can build chariots instead of longbowmen?

Etc...

And how strongly does the impending arrival of a such a tech affect your builds? (e.g. a mass wave of chariot builds just before Guilds)
I will hold off hooking up a metal if I build the GW, otherwise, I do it ASAP. Lately, on Immortal, its almost too long to tech Mining and BW before Barbs come, but Hunting then Archery come much quicker. Dealing with Barbs is one of the biggest hurdles in the move up to any level.

As for Feud and Guilds, never. I always want the best units, because eventually, I will pull my 2nd, 3rd and 4th Garrisons (who are likely there just for the happy face) and put them into action. For the first Garrison, I would love all Warriors, because as TMIT said, its rarely a factor in non-border cities. Either you are winning and they will never see an enemy unit, or if they do see the enemy, its probably too late because you have lost Border cities already.
 
I'll often leave a single city with no metal hookup to spam warriors. My main cites build real troops, who move to the front as warriors arrive to replace them.
 
I usually go with the best ranged units I can build at the time and wouldn't delay anything to save some hammers on garrisons. Like TMIT said, they're pretty much on lockdown till you get constitution, and you might need them if you get attacked by surprise to buy time. I like mounted units and siege for taking out enemy stacks. Then again, I only play on Emperor, so I can afford an extra dozen units.
 
I know you play above noble, so you aren't going to be keeping power rating "at meaningful levels". It's not a gray scale - it's an on/off switch for the AI in terms of power, and you aren't going to get 150% of shaka's power with axe spam and still tech decently!

Also, if you're using the axes for garrisons, they are locked there or you're in :mad: anyway due to moving them to your borders. Unless you're playing humans garrisons do practically nothing other than border cities or :).
Axe garrisons are sufficient to keep the power rating at 0.7-1.0 on monarch which is plenty to ward off all but the most Monty neighbors, and plenty to defend if it comes to that.

I am not interested in conquest, if i was then i would be using warriors or archers. This is a peaceful way of keeping your empire happy while at the same time diverting resources to defense without specifically having to think about it or MM it to any degree.
 
Axe garrisons are sufficient to keep the power rating at 0.7-1.0 on monarch which is plenty to ward off all but the most Monty neighbors, and plenty to defend if it comes to that.

I am not interested in conquest, if i was then i would be using warriors or archers. This is a peaceful way of keeping your empire happy while at the same time diverting resources to defense without specifically having to think about it or MM it to any degree.

If your intent is to stop yourself once they decide to declare, you just need enough forces to match their invasion stack. This is attained vs everyone but toku by camping a unit in their territory near their stack (which is always flagrantly obvious), and making sure you have enough forces to match on defense(the AI are so brilliant, aren't they).

If you're trying to prevent a declaration at all, having "sufficient" power rating is a garbage argument for axes. There are very, very few AIs that will not declare at a 1.0 power ratio with you. If you're below that, forget it completely. For the people with low peaceweights, they can decided to declare on you when you are markedly stronger.

Let me build on this with some basic war powers: Shaka's will declare max war on you with 90% of your power. Ragnar/nap need to be a little stronger (1.1/1.2x). Bismark? Brennus? Darius? Hannibal? All 1.0. There are some surprises - churchill and washington are the same as shaka (though they'll hurt less). Even peaceniks like pericles, liz, lincoln, and hatty will declare at .9 of your power!!

What sets some of those guys apart is their war chances at differing dispositions. Shaka is 40% at cautious, sitting bull is a whopping 90. However, now you're relying on dice rolls and diplo, not power!

You're telling me that monarch + you think it's a good idea to keep enough power to deter a DoW? Look, I AM a warmonger, and I'm telling you that sufficient power to AVOID war entirely is IMPOSSIBLE with the AI bonuses, ESPECIALLY if you are a builder. It is also unnecessary - if you're using axes to grow your cities to huge pops early on, you're overbuilding military. How many axes vs warriors until you could have had libraries, courthouses, and other improvements instead? With the same functional odds of war and the same ability to repel invasions? You have a substantial opportunity cost to your tech rate by not building cheaper garrison units. You'll reach key techs more slowly.

In summary: If you aren't attacking them, it's foolish to sink hammers into such units. They won't be well promoted to justify upgrades, they won't be necessary for defense (and it'll cut into your happiness if you use them for that purpose), and they sure as hell aren't going to prevent war.

So, what's the upside then, assuming VS the AI? The equation changes a bit versus humans, but it's pretty bad to call oneself a "builder" when playing against humans in the mindset of attacking you to begin with, so I'm going to assume you're talking about taking on the AI, in which cases using axes for anything but rushing or anti-rush on the borders is pretty suboptimal.
 
Thats all nice and theoretical, but you are thinking in 1 on 1 terms here.

The AI also takes the overall diplo situation into account, such as who is likely to attack him if he tries something. If i share a religion with someone, and a second AI has a different religion, and we are all roughly equally powerful, the one guy with the heathen religion is not going to start a war in most cases. Its more likely to be my ally that starts something.

If, however, i have a bunch of warriors for garrison and i didnt bother building any other military, they will both attack me.

If i have warriors for garrison, and i dont wanna go to war, then my stack of doom is sitting useless somewhere and i probably dont save any hammers anyway.

Considering that the probability of going to war, willing or not, approaches one as time goes on, and that axes can take out anything before rifles (and sometimes them too) with proper collateral, which i will have if i am in a war, and that my entire garrison will eventually be freed up, axes make sense for peacenicks who want to avoid early wars.

*note, i switch to swords and maces when i get them, its just easier to say axes all the time
 
I've delayed researching a few infantry so i have time to build more macemen. Especially if i can train level 3 macemen. Promote them all to CR3, then upgrade them to infantry the moment i discover assembly line. Especially considering how easy it is to bee-line assembly line, it's rather broken.

Bonus fun: do it as vikings so they have amphibious assualt. No coastal city is safe.
 
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