Garrisoned Units taking Damage

[shaglio]

I started a game with the CP last night and was dismayed to see that my garrisoned unit got obliterated by the AI units besieging my city. I was under the impression that this feature was only in the CBP. I searched through the Unified Change Log and couldn't find any reference to it in either the CP or CBP (so I'm guessing the UCL isn't up to date). EDIT: Also, I combed through all change logs from the latest New Beta/Version/Hotfix threads on the last two pages (back to the January 8 version) and I couldn't find any mention of this either.

1) Is this indeed supposed to be a feature in the CP?
2) If so, can anybody steer me in the right direction to disable it?

EDIT 2: I went back a third page and read the January 3 change log. Apparently garrisoned units taking damage is listed before the "Balance" section and thus in the CP (I can't believe I haven't played a single game with the CP all month ). So question #2 is still on the table.

 

[Funak]

The units don't exactly take damage when defending, they absorb damage from the city. This was added because cities were too squishy and it was preferable to defend outside the city. Now having a strong melee unit sitting in the city autohealing pretty much doubles the effective hp of your city.

What I'm trying to say is that I have no idea how to disable it, but I think you should give it more of a try.

 

[Enginseer]

I know we had a discussion about the Drill-Shock CBP promotion, about how Shock is overall better than Drill, but..

if the Drill promotion hasn't already, what if the Drill promotions increase the damage that the garrisoned unit take also? Aren't the garrisoned essentially fortified unit?

 

[ExpiredReign]

I'm not sure the distinction between: "absorbing damage from the city" and "taking damage" is relevant to the player, the end result is dead garrison.

While I like the concept, sort of, it is disappointing to lose your garrison when there is no safe place to run to. Often the city can easily take another few hits while the unit heals a bit before returning.

I really like @Enginseer's idea though.

 

[Funak]

if the Drill promotion hasn't already, what if the Drill promotions increase the damage that the garrisoned unit take also? Aren't the garrisoned essentially fortified unit?

I'm not going to say that drill is fine, because I seriously don't know. But garrisoned units are going to take more damage from attacking units with drill because drill increases combatstrength against cities. So this would be some double-dipping which I find unnecessary.

I'm not sure the distinction between: "absorbing damage from the city" and "taking damage" is relevant to the player, the end result is dead garrison.

The difference is that the city survives, which is usually worth more than a garrison.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

If the City has no walls and you attack with Drill 2 and Siege Musketeer, the Knight in the city dies right away. Surprisingly the City only loses half its Health.

 

[Funak]

If the City has no walls and you attack with Drill 2 and Siege Musketeer, the Knight in the city dies right away. Surprisingly the City only loses half its Health.

Not really that strange, is it? Cities have more hp than units have. I mostly meant that the garrison makes the city last twice the time if the damage happens over time and the unit have time to heal. Monster-rushes into un-walled cities are naturally going to provide different results .

 

[Enginseer]

But garrisoned units are going to take more damage from attacking units with drill because drill increases combatstrength against cities. So this would be some double-dipping which I find unnecessary.

Well, Drill is in a bad position due to the fact that the Drill bonus are negligible once the cities starts to have serious defensive buildings up which is usually the classical era(What? I have to research Swordsman which is at the bottom of the tech tree?) where walls are often build to negate crime. And the fortified unit bonus is a rarity because the only time you would often see them fortifying is when they want to heal.

But of course your garrisons would already die in an instant from ranged bombardment anyway. So, it might be a bit OP. Perhaps, Drill could reduce the damage that the city decides to give to the garrison (Drill has a connotation of organized, so an organized garrison would defend much effectively than a garrison meant to be on the offense(Shock).

 

[Funak]

Well, Drill is in a bad position due to the fact that the Drill bonus are negligible once the cities starts to have serious defensive buildings up which is usually the classical era(What? I have to research Swordsman which is at the bottom of the tech tree?) where walls are often build to negate crime. And the fortified unit bonus is a rarity because the only time you would often see them fortifying is when they want to heal.

I don't necessarily agree that melee-units can't attack into well defended cities, in fact as someone else mentioned with 2 points of drill and one point siege, melee-units are really good at bashing cities.

 

[shaglio]

The units don't exactly take damage when defending, they absorb damage from the city. This was added because cities were too squishy and it was preferable to defend outside the city. Now having a strong melee unit sitting in the city autohealing pretty much doubles the effective hp of your city.

What I'm trying to say is that I have no idea how to disable it, but I think you should give it more of a try.

I'm just surprised that it's in the CP, which I thought just fixed errors in the vanilla coding and made the AI slightly more intelligent. This feature seems more like a "Balance" change that should be kept in the CBP, no?

 

[Funak]

I'm just surprised that it's in the CP, which I thought just fixed errors in the vanilla coding and made the AI slightly more intelligent. This feature seems more like a "Balance" change that should be kept in the CBP, no?

No clue, I don't use CP, only the full CPP.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm just surprised that it's in the CP, which I thought just fixed errors in the vanilla coding and made the AI slightly more intelligent. This feature seems more like a "Balance" change that should be kept in the CBP, no?

It is heavily integrated into how garrison logic was reworked for the AI. While it does toe the line of gameplay v. bugfix (like the warscore change), it also comes with some pretty big AI improvements. It was a necessary evil in order to fix some other changes in the AI re: garrisons.

G

 

[Iamblichos]

It's a great feature. Couldn't imagine without it now. Makes a real difference.

 

[Tarzan737]

I didnt know about this, but for me it sounds good!
Why shouldnt military units get damaged in a city in real life?

 

[kaspergm]

The difference is that the city survives, which is usually worth more than a garrison.

Also, if the city had fallen in the old system, the unit would have died anyway.


I was also at first surprised to see this feature in the basic CP, but after a while I've come to like it. On one hand, it makes it harder to take a city, which is good, because this could be too easy. On the other hand, it also means it's possible to kill a pesky unit hiding inside a city, which is both realistic and good for gameplay imo.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out in the long run, I have a very enjoyable game going with Shaka where I had to borderline cheat (multi-worker-repair-spam) to wrestle a city from Washington who was hiding behind Red Ford + tradition-boosted castle and kept pooring out minutemen en masse. It took me close to 30 turns to finally grab the city, which was was a nice change from the usual battles which will normally be over in 5 turns.

 

[supracseduch]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out in the long run, I have a very enjoyable game going with Shaka where I had to borderline cheat (multi-worker-repair-spam) to wrestle a city from Washington who was hiding behind Red Ford + tradition-boosted castle and kept pooring out minutemen en masse. It took me close to 30 turns to finally grab the city, which was was a nice change from the usual battles which will normally be over in 5 turns.

Now that you mention it, that thing has got to be removed. It's when you pillage a tile with a unit, repair it with a Worker, then after two turns (in Standard Speed), you can pillage it again. I feel that it's dishonorable and thus I completely avoid doing that. This is one of the reasons Marathon is better than Standard. I think the solution is as simple as disallowing repairs (along with any other improvement action except Archaeological Dig and Citadel) in foreign territory.

 

[Iamblichos]

Now that you mention it, that thing has got to be removed. It's when you pillage a tile with a unit, repair it with a Worker, then after two turns (in Standard Speed), you can pillage it again. I feel that it's dishonorable and thus I completely avoid doing that. This is one of the reasons Marathon is better than Standard. I think the solution is as simple as disallowing repairs (along with any other improvement action except Archaeological Dig and Citadel) in foreign territory.

Ha that's one of my favorite exploits!

 

[kaspergm]

Now that you mention it, that thing has got to be removed. It's when you pillage a tile with a unit, repair it with a Worker, then after two turns (in Standard Speed), you can pillage it again. I feel that it's dishonorable and thus I completely avoid doing that. This is one of the reasons Marathon is better than Standard. I think the solution is as simple as disallowing repairs (along with any other improvement action except Archaeological Dig and Citadel) in foreign territory.

Well what I did was even worse than that. I'm using the "no more civilian traffic jam" mod which allows you to stack multiple civilians in same tile (best mod EVER!) but with Liberty + Pyramids, it means you can repair + pillage the same tile multiple times each turn which is pretty lame.

 

[supracseduch]

Ha that's one of my favorite exploits!

Well what I did was even worse than that. I'm using the "no more civilian traffic jam" mod which allows you to stack multiple civilians in same tile (best mod EVER!) but with Liberty + Pyramids, it means you can repair + pillage the same tile multiple times each turn which is pretty lame.

How can you guys live with yourselves after doing something so filthy?

 

[Gazebo]

Well what I did was even worse than that. I'm using the "no more civilian traffic jam" mod which allows you to stack multiple civilians in same tile (best mod EVER!) but with Liberty + Pyramids, it means you can repair + pillage the same tile multiple times each turn which is pretty lame.

I thought I'd patched that out ages ago...must've slipped my mind. Anyways, don't get attached to this exploit.

G