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[GS] Gathering Storm General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    We're, uh... talking about the in-game trade route system! Yeah, that's it! :D

    I should have said "free trade" instead of the C-word.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Free Market Capitalism, by definition, wants access to all markets , all customers possible.

    We're about to veer 'way off topic and out of Civ here, so I'll make this as short as possible:
    The history of industrialization and capitalism, and they go hand in hand because building factories requires masses of capital investment, is that of the concentration of wealth and political power into the hands of the capitalists, and that group becoming a pyramid with the tip of the pyramid controlling a larger and larger percentage of all the wealth of the society. Happened in England at the beginning of the 19th century, was happening in the USA at the end of the 19th century, and has been happening in the USA for the past 30 years (at least). The statistics on the increasing concentration of wealth and the stagnation or, in terms of real buying power, the decline of wages 'paid for their labor' to the working and middle classes are readily available.

    Yes, the total wealth in the society, and for that matter the standard of living of the majority of workers, rises dramatically between a pre and post-industrial economy. BUT the relative wealth of the 'workers' declines compared to other members of that same society. (and in fact, in England the agricultural laboring class had their economic situation decline drastically when they were converted to factory workers, but that, so far, seems to be an 'outlier' - the British agricultural laborer and small farmer was a pretty well-off group compared to similar workers in other pre-industrial societies)

    And the trend historically is, at least to me, unmistakable: unfettered 'free market' capitalism leads inevitably to socialist reforms or revolution: see the trends in France, Britain and Germany in the late 19th - early 20th century, the Progressive Movement in the USA in the same period, Bismarck's successful 'contract' with the Social Democrats - and at the Sharp End, the Communist Revolution in Russia and attempted Communist Revolutions in Germany and other countries (admittedly, partly brought about by the complete discrediting of all the old governing mechanisms by World War One). in the first third of the 20th century.

    Free Market Capitalism, as the examples of England, western Europe, USA, and more recently China, India, and Brazil show, is a massive producer of wealth, but it is also a massive producer of inequality. When that inequality cannot be hidden or disguised, as in the era of mass market newspapers, literature, literate populations, radio, TV, and the internet, it leads to resentment. In a Democracy, the resented are far outnumbered by the resentful and their wealth is dispersed or shared by voted measures (Income Taxes, for the most obvious). In a non-Democracy or 'managed Democracy' (not my phrase, unfortunately, but a perfect description of modern Russia, China, and certain states in the USA) where voting doesn't change things, Other Methods will be employed sooner or later. Today Other Methods can be very, very messy indeed (if for no other reason, the destructiveness of the weapons available to individuals has increased dramatically since WWII: automatic weapons, small rockets, IEDs of all kinds, poisons, and the expertise to use them via the Internet)

    Free Market Capitalism is not and never has been an Unmitigated Evil as some would have it. I don't, but I am also aware of the history of its, and the negatives associated with it as well as the positives.
    (Disclaimer/Explanation: One of my best friends and my partner in writing military history is, probably, one of the last True Believing Communists left in the Western Hemisphere: we don't discuss economic systems much, because I don't give socialism or Communism any Free Passes, either)

    Now, back to Civ VI...
     
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  3. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Veering back on track -
    The Phoenician city states and 19th century Britain were certainly historical examples of this, although Britain was also willing to fight to open up markets. - and Carthage was willing to fight to keep certain markets closed to others, like the 'City States/Barbarian Camps' in Atlantic coastal Spain.

    Have we seen enough of the World Congress yet to see if there are any Trade/Free Trade/ Open Market provisions or resolutions possible? I confess I'm not up to plowing through close to a hundred pages of posts to dig any of that out myself, sorry!

    It would certainly produce an interesting 'flavor' to Civ's that have trade bonuses or advantages without quite being an extra 'buff', since it would be problematic in any given game. And it could apply to quite a few of the City States as well, and act as an added diplomatic fillip in addition to the simple bonus (occasionally) from establishing a Trade Route to them.)

    I would love to see Trade Blocs in the game in addition to 'mere' diplomatic Alliances - mutual gold production should be a much more certain motivator for agreement!
     
  4. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    We've only seen two sets of proposals so far. It still begs to question if they are indeed randomizied (if so, that's quite disappointing tbh, while it will prevent the frustrating "Let's Ban Resource A", all the time, there's a lot of things that make me wonder if it's going to be an effective system like in Civ 5 (from it's simplicity))
     
  5. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    In any free market, when the value of your labor is determined by how much the market is willing to pay for it, there is inevitably going to be a disparity in pay between different jobs and different quality work within the same job. Disparities in wealth may become social problems if they are extreme enough, but that's still not a case of "exploitation." If you are paid a fair market wage for your work, then you're not being "exploited" just because someone else is making more than you. That person is being paid more because they earned more... no one took any money away from you to pay that person. The economy is not a zero-sum game; individuals and companies create new wealth by engaging in trade and by creating new products and services that didn't exist before. And it's inherently unfair that someone who is very skilled and talented and works very hard should be paid the same wage as someone who works poorly or not at all.

    How to minimize wealth inequality is a difficult problem that no one has figured out a solution to yet that isn't either incredibly unfair (and which therefore destroys the incentives that drive the creation of wealth in the first place) or which makes the problems of inequality even worse.

    Not yet. What we have seen so far is:

    Resolutions
    • World Religion: +10 Religious Combat Strength for this religion, or (-10?)
    • Luxury Policy: Ban luxury, or gain additional Amenities from duplicates of this luxury
    • Migration Treaty: +20% population growth and -5 Loyalty to a civilization, or +5 Loyalty and -20% growth
    • Heritage Organization: Double Tourism or eliminate Tourism from a type of Great Works
    • Diplomatic Victory: Target leader gains 2 Diplomatic Victory Points, or loses 1 Diplomatic Victory Point
    Competitions
    • World Fair
    • World Games
    • Request for Aid
    • International Space Station
    • Nobel Peace Prize
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  6. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    Problem: the top 10% of wealth in American society, from which most professional liberal donors and operatives are drawn, are the complicit aristocracy to the weak and corrupt dauphin, Trump.

    Solution:

    Moderator Action: <image snipped>
    Please, you should know better. Please review site rules before you think about posting an image like that.--Browd

    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2018
  7. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Moderator Action: A debate about capitalism and current US politics has no place in a discussion about a game expansion. Back to discussing GS please.
     
  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I'd like to add that the Nobel Peace Prize is a listed competition on the official site.
     
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  9. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    So there really isn't anything about Multi-Nation International Trade Treaties, Trade Pacts, Embargoes, or any of the other multi-national trade/diplomatic actions common in the Modern/Atomic/Information Eras.
    I think that's another Omission that would have added a lot to the World Congress/Assembly mechanic. The potential to get more out of trade with other Civ's (or City States) and the possibility of stripping gold out of your opponent's Trade would have made the 'international congress' a lot more interesting and useful...

    That's great, but what about the Other Nobel Prizes?
    - Possibly awarded at random...

    Literature - have a Great Writer produce a Nobel for Literature and get extra Gold from sales of the work
    (NOTE: This is Fantasy: I worked in a bookstore for 15 years and neither the Nobel or National Book Awards ever made a &^%$# difference in sales, but we can dream...)
    Science - (as opposed to separating them into Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc): get a Science boost if Your Great Scientist gets the award.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2018
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  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    That's a shame. I evangelize for Kazuo Ishiguro every chance I get. :D
     
  11. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    I assume that there are more World Congress options that we haven't seen yet.
     
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  12. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso King

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    Now we know that railroads will contribute to climate change. I understand because they burn coal. But once electricity is cleaner, will they still add to climate change? Right now (at least in Europe) train is on of the cleanest travel options you can have. It would make sense to have railroads insted of regular roads used by cars and trucks polluting.
     
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  13. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    So a tech that makes railroads clean but consuming power?
     
  14. Cerilis

    Cerilis Stormrider

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    wouldnt that fit better as a policy card?
     
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  15. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    The problem is that as far as we know, railroads only create CO2 when built, not for continuing usage. So I don‘t see the benefit if you build railways early on and then get CO2 „neutral“ trains.

    Maybe a better system would have been railroads needing iron to be built and coal/power for using x tiles of it.
     
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  16. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso King

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    Policy card of technology, I dunno, but I think it should be depicted in the game.

    Another way would be the pollution is linked to the overall pollution of your empire. Railroads pollute if you produce electricity mainly through coal, but if you use hydroelectric, railroad pollute less.
     
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  17. BoGo

    BoGo Chieftain

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    railroads don't create CO2 directly. Trains need electricity to function but the main source to produce electricity is actualy coal (which produce a lot of CO2...)
     
  18. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    In civ vi, railroads do create CO2 directly indeed. Every tile of it creates CO2 when placed.
    My suggestion was that steam trains would consume coal/create CO2, electric trains use power/no direct CO2 from the train, but maybe for powering it.
     
  19. Silverdawn

    Silverdawn Prince

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    Europe has many electric trains so they would get it from the grid. It will depend on the region if that is from coal, nuclear, gas, oil, hydro, wind or solar.

    In the US and many other countries trains often run on diesel. And the early trains were steam-powered from coal onboard.
     
  20. BoGo

    BoGo Chieftain

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    agree. but IMHO civ 6 simulates CO2 production placing new railroad tiles to make things easy. Perhaps if your powersource is from renewables, the CO2 production (railroads included) is halved
     

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