GEM: Christo Redentor overpowered?

[justinnyc4now]

First: Thalassicus, thank you so much for all your work, and thank you for bringing together a great group of people to discuss your work so that we can improve the game play for everyone. I really enjoy your mod and would like to finally contribute something!

As you know from our discussion on your website comments, I think the Christo Redentor mod is too powerful. For the sake of everyone else, I'll repost our discussion for further commentary:

My original comment (lightly edited):

Christo Redentor seems OP. It’s the jackpot of all wonders atm. It adds 8 utility for each artist, and with 3-4 per city immediately available, and as much as 6 or 8 later available, that’s 32-64 bonus utility PER CITY. Compare that with Statue of Liberty, which gives just 1 production per specialist.

Your reply:

Most lategame world wonders are very powerful to compensate for the fact they have little time to take effect. Christo comes later than the Statue, costs more, and we can have fewer artists than total specialists. In addition to that, artists are often considered one of the weaker specialists.

I will double the effect of the Statue, so it gives the same bonus as the Liberty finisher. Flat production is a lot more available than it was when Civ 5 first released, which weakened the relative value of flat production bonuses.

My latest reply (lightly edited):

I like the Statue change, but I still think Christo is OP. Consider the cost of Christo in terms of Great Engineers (which are easily available through religious purchases), and look at the decision you face. So, let’s assume the GP are all equal cost, and you’re deciding — should I get a scientist, a merchant, a prophet or an engineer? If you look at their tile improvements alone, it’s essentially a tie. So then you might consider their instant bonuses. And I think you’ve balanced this well — a flat production, gold or science boost available, all about equally valuable, and proportionate to the religious cost of building the GP in the first place. So that’s all balanced very well. But then you consider Christo as a possible outcome here. Christo gets you +32 utility per city. In the constructed city alone, Christo then doubles the value of the GP’s tile improvement, but that’s just in one city! If you have, conservatively, 8 cities, Christo is 16x more valuable than a GP tile improvement. Now these are approximations, and I recognize there is an inherent cost in using farm tiles to boost population for specialists instead of using villages, but hopefully the point is made well enough.

Maybe this outcome is different based on my style of play, which to abbreviate here, essentially gets religious production at little or no gold cost, thereby making it almost costless to buy GP with religion. When I weigh Christo against the other possible uses of my religious wealth, it’s clear that Christo is 10-20x better than any other choice out there.

Christo does come a little later in the game, but it's not too many techs later than the Statue, and while the modified Statute may give a +2 bonus to every specialist, whereas Christo gives +8 to only artists — it’s rare in my experience that I max out my specialists that early in the game — I often choose instead to maximize agricultural capacity to continue growing and use non-essential workers as artists. In 1-2 cities I do have some early overflow from artists, but it isn’t until the late 20th century that the decision dynamics compel me to stop growing population and to focus on maximum output from specialists, at which point, you are right, the statue may become more valuable. In this scenario, I think the +2 hammers per specialist change you propose would balance well.

Summary:
My proposal would be to remove Christo's gold bonus to artists. Since gold is fungible, taking that bonus away would still allow Christo to give players significant production, artistic and scientific bonuses (+6 per specialist or about +24 per city), but would not create a source of wealth for players to use toward a specific benefit they need (buying units/buildings/CS alliances/research agreements). Also, players might face a more interesting decision as to whether a village or a farm is more necessary when gold is running low (currently my answer is: more farms = more artists = more gold and more everything).

Thanks again!!

 

[Thalassicus]

Welcome to the forums justinnyc4now!

If we reduce the Christo's effect, I'd prefer to do one of these things:

• Increase the cost of the wonder.
• Drop the modifiers to +1 (down from +2).
• Remove the culture modifier.

The basic concept is "artists give all base yields." I like the simplicity of that, so I want to keep the gold boost in some form.

 

[justinnyc4now]

Welcome to the forums justinnyc4now!

If we reduce the Christo's effect, I'd prefer to do one of these things:

• Increase the cost of the wonder.
• Drop all the modifiers to +1 (down from +2).
• Remove the culture modifier.

The basic concept is "artists give all base yields." I like the simplicity of it.

I'd be happy with any of those 3, although (b) seems the most drastic. If you go with (a), I'd suggest 100% more cost (noting again, that Engineers can seem almost "free" with a lot of religion). The downside to (a) is that I'm unsure if the AI would ever build one, if they lack the creative thinking behind buying GP with religion.

I'm happy to step away and let others comment now. Thanks again for listening, your thoughtful responses and for your hard work!

Edit: If I were voting, I would vote to combine (a) and (c), maybe increasing the cost 50% along with removing culture modifier.
Second Edit: Maybe I'm also hinting at an underlying problem with engineers being so affordable with religion through the Order tree. With your new wonders providing even more religion, the effect could be compounded. I'm curious if maybe GEs should be 25% more expensive to purchase with religion...

 

[Zaldron]

Welcome to the forums justinnyc4now!

If we reduce the Christo's effect, I'd prefer to do one of these things:

• Increase the cost of the wonder.
• Drop the modifiers to +1 (down from +2).
• Remove the culture modifier.

The basic concept is "artists give all base yields." I like the simplicity of that, so I want to keep the gold boost in some form.

I'm actually not convinced the CR is OP given its timeframe and the opportunity costs to make most effective use of it. Certainly not every playstyle is going to want to dedicate that many artists to properly utilize the wonder and would rather spend the production on say an army and the specialists on food/production tiles. If we're looking to nerf it slightly I'd suggest starting with a 25% cost increase (you'll definitely need two GE to pop it then unless you have a monster city).

 

[justinnyc4now]

I'm actually not convinced the CR is OP given its timeframe and the opportunity costs to make most effective use of it. Certainly not every playstyle is going to want to dedicate that many artists to properly utilize the wonder and would rather spend the production on say an army and the specialists on food/production tiles. If we're looking to nerf it slightly I'd suggest starting with a 25% cost increase (you'll definitely need two GE to pop it then unless you have a monster city).

Zaldron, thanks for adding to the discussion. I'm not sure you've actually looked at the numbers, but it's astonishing. As I'll show below, I don't see how anyone could not help but make it the #1 wonder priority after 1200 AD.

The game I'm playing: continents plus, large, difficulty 6, quick game, siam, currently 1888. I got Christo maybe 20-80 years ago, not sure exactly. Here are the numbers:

Christo's cost: 1,005 hammers.

Gr. Eng.: provides between 920 and 1280 hammers (200 + 30 x citypop, with a capital of 24 people and a secondary Petra-monster of a city with 37 population).

So the cost is one GE, plus or minus 1-2 turns of production. The GE cost me something like 680 religion (I can still buy another for 1000 religion). I'm making 450 religion per turn which I can't use for anything else, because I've already got Cathedrals and Mosques in every city, and the religious belief that spreads religion to cities 30% farther away, making missionaries totally unnecessary. FWIW, I didn't even build shrines until after the 16th Century.

So the cost of Christo to me was 2 turns of religion that could be used for little else (It now costs 5600 for a Gr. Scientist, and 1600 for a Gr. Prophet I don't need).

Here's what Christo gives me: 6 culture/turn and 2 gold, 2 hammer, 2 sci, 2 culture per artist. I have 40 artists currently, so I'm getting +80 gold, 80 hammers, 80 sci and 80 culture per turn. That's right: Christo gives me 320 utility points per turn, at a nominal cost of 2 turns of religious production.

But you might wonder, maybe this is unique to me, maybe other people couldn't afford to have so many artists, they'd rather use their citizens elsewhere. Bollocks. With some other bonuses, artists give me 5 production, 5 culture, 2 gold 2 science. There isn't a tile improvement available that compares. In fact, I find it best to convert all of my non-resource mines and villages to farms, just so I have more population to use artists. I have resource tiles with coal mines that give me 7 hammer, and I don't even work them, because artists are so much better.

Bottom line: I've probably got 50 turns left to play since I made the Christo. At the cost of 680 religion or whatever, I will get somewhere between 4000 gold, 4000 production, 4000 science and 4000 culture from it. That's just crazy.

You suggested I might want to use the production to build army units. Well, what would you do: build 3 landships for 1005 production or a Christo that gives you 16000 points of utility over 50 turns?

 

[Zaldron]

I appreciate your interest in this matter. I absolutely agree that it's a powerful wonder and I do often build it. I can't comment on how balanced it is on quick speed (especially on a large map) compared to other speeds (I play only normal or epic with standard/large, as the mod prescribes).

Great engineers are indeed powerful for creating wonders - I once suggested giving them 3-5 smaller boosts that could only be used on normal buildings. But let's say the cost is one GE and up to five additional turns of production.

The fact that your GE cost you 680 makes it seem to me like it was your first or maybe second GE from religion - people may commonly have purchased more that that. Additionally if you have 450 religion/turn that implies to me that either there is way too much religion in the game OR that GP costs are much too low in the latest version. That's the first real problem that needs to be addressed here.

When comparing the benefits of the CR it's of course not reasonable to include *other* bonuses to specialists in the comparison: You have to simply compare the wonder itself. But let's say even at their base+CR artists are very compelling to utilize in this situation. But what if you haven't focused strongly on cuture buildings and only have 1-2 artist slots per city? What if you used that production on other production that had more immediate benefit to your civ?

I also don't quite understand how you have so many artist slots that a coal mine would go totally unworked. How many pop/farms/artists did you have in that city?

I'm going to respectfully say that I believe you have micharacterized the bottom line in general (although in your particular game it seems accurate). Let's estimate 150 hammer/artist slot (museums/broadcast towers are much more expensive than that, amphitheaters less). So, leaving relgious GPs out of the equation you have 1000p for the wonder, 150*40 = ~6000p conservative for the artists, which transforms into more of different yields over time. That's a *lot* of production that could have been spent on many other items in different gameplaystyles.

I would of course never buld landships, but certainly aircraft/artillery/infantry might be more useful if it means taking a city vs not.

I'll leave you with one final (extreme) opportunity cost example to illustrate that things are not always by the numbers. If you could start the game with 1000 gold at the expense of 1 gold/turn for 250 turns and then another 3gold/turn until the end of the game 300 turns later (so 1150 total gold spent), what would you do?

 

[justinnyc4now]

Hey Zaldron, thanks for your remarks.

1. Re price of GEs in terms of religion:
Yes he was the first GE from religion, but even at 1000 religion (2nd) GE, he's still just 2 turns of religious production. Even at 1600 GE (3rd cost) he's 3-4 turns. I agree they may be too cheap in religious cost, but bear in mind they only provide ~1000 hammers, so the cost may be relatively fair. I do find it easier, however, to produce religion and buy GE production than to simply produce hammers for wonders.

2. Re other specialist bonuses:
You're right -- CR doesn't give me 5 culture 5 production, 2 gold and 2 science per specialist -- I want to be very clear that it only gives me 4,000 gold, 4,000 production, 4,000 sci and 4,000 culture over a 50 year span if I have 40 artist spots. Obviously I'll have more artists before the end of the game, and the 16000 utility underestimates the value of the wonder. But keep in mind that it only cost me 1,000 hammers to begin with, so I'm getting AT LEAST 400% RETURN ON HAMMERS ALONE, and a 1600% return in total utility, regardless of whether I pay for GE with religion or actually hammer out the wonder.

3. Re the cost of artist slots:
I don't agree that artist slots cost me 150p. If cultural buildings only gave artist slots and nothing else, then your math would be correct. But even without artist slots, many cultural buildings are worthwhile. And I see no argument to undercut this logic: if I would build a cultural building anyway, for its cultural bonuses alone, irrespective of its artists slots, then the artists slots cost me nothing. If, however, I am prioritizing culture buildings over sci/tech/prod buildings because of the artist slots they give me, then yeah, there is an opportunity cost there; but even there, the cost is not simply the price of the building divided by the cost of production, because I suspect the cost in hammers is outweighed by the value the building provides in culture. Rather, you would simply weigh the value of the museum or opera house against a competing building, like a university or bank or factory to identify the opportunity cost.

The cultural buildings I constructed probably cost me more than 6000p, because as you noted, that underestimates the actual cost of these buildings, and in fact, there are a number of artist slots unused in towns that need add'l growth first. But these cultural buildings probably gave me 15 SPs which alone are worth even 10,000p if that's what it cost.

4. Re your question:
I don't understand your final question. "at the expense of 250 gold/turn for 250 turns" sounds like a cost of over 60,000 gold, not 1150 total spent. But yeah, I have a degree in engineering and got As in economics and engineering calculus, so I'm well versed in cost-benefit analyses, including opportunity cost and other principles of economics.

5. Re city that can afford to skip coal mine:
I am away from home, but IIRC, the city had about 20 population, but was not well stocked with agriculture (i.e, it had mountains, hills and deserts, but also a river), so I think I have the artist slots mostly maxed but maybe not fully, and was still trying to fill up all the river tiles and other big food tiles with workers before using up a non-food producing tile like the coal mine, since many of the sci/religious/gold buildings depend on population for bonuses.

6. Re opportunity cost:

In some of my largest cities, I've nearly run out of "opportunity". I have constructed all the worthwhile buildings available, I am constructing military, but there is a limit to how much military I can use. At some point my military becomes too expensive to maintain, and I cannot afford to conquer more territory given the happiness penalties. Sure, I could just roam and plunder for gold, but there are certainly declining marginal utilities for military production, and at some point soon the marginal utility for add'l military production wll actually be negative (i.e., more costly than beneficial). I am close to this point, and so in at least 2 cities, I face the prospect of having to build "Research" or "Wealth" which I detest bc of how inefficient it is. Obviously they are an "opportunity" but they represent essentially the baseline zero against which all other opportunities should be measured.

7. Re difficulty/speed:

My above posts could be construed to be complaints about how easy the game is, but please don't misunderstand me. I know I can win random map/civ games on level 6 difficulty without reloading autosaves nearly all of the time, but I don't always do quite this well, and I find that if I go up to level 7 difficulty, and use random map/random civ, I have to reload A LOT of autosaves to squeek out of the middle ages with a competitive civ capable of winning the game. I'm sure level 7 is more feasible on Standard/Epic speeds, but with how slow the game has become between turns, I find those options undesirable.

8: Final thoughts:

If you think Cristo is not OP, please identify a wonder (or 2 or 3?) that provides more significant benefits relative to its cost. I'm interested to hear. I haven't done a lot of calculating, but I tend to like, in no particular order, the Great Library (if I can get it, and only to advance Nat'l College quickly), Stonehenge (I hate paying for shrines/temples, and I like to be 1st in upgrading religion to get 30% farther influence + mosques/cathedrals/pagodas), Sistine Chapel, Forbidden Palace, Eiffel Tower, Hubble Telescope, and Chitzen Itza (helps a lot at end of game when using abundant religious supplies to buy GP-inspired golden ages that last 100 turns). Forbidden Palace, Eiffel Tower and Cristo are my favorites, I think, though in a close tech race, Hubble can be crucial, and in tough economic times, Chitzen Itza coupled with some religion to buy GPs can be a life saver.

 

[justinnyc4now]

One last thought about the valuation of CR in terms of marginal utility. In many cases, artists could be working improved tiles worth 5 utility (e.g., 3 food+2 gold water tiles, or 2 food+2 science+1 gold grassland villages). The improvements have some construction and maintenance costs so let's say an average tile is worth about 4 utility, whereas a CR-improved artist is worth 5 culture, 2 sci, 2 gold, 2 prod +sp production. Without the CR, an artist would have less value (3 culture) than a 4 utility tile, but the CR artists provide 5 culture + 6 utility, which is 5 culture and 2 utility more than an ordinary tile.

So the cost benefit gets narrowed to this:
Is it worth 1005 production to get 5 culture + 2 utility from every artist (and 6 nominal culture per turn from the building itself)? With 40 artists and 50 turns that's only 10,000 culture and 4,000 utility, which isn't too far off from the earlier numbers, except that it may be important to note that the vast majority of marginal gains go strictly to culture, while less than 1/3 of the marginal benefits go to other utility (prod/gold/sci).

Now, if you're playing on a difficulty level that won't allow for 40 artists over 50 turns, the calculation can be very different. E.g, if you only had 20 artists over 25 turns, you'd only get 2,500 culture and 1,000 utility in return for 1,005 hammers of production.

 

[Zaldron]

4. Re your question:
I don't understand your final question. "at the expense of 250 gold/turn for 250 turns" sounds like a cost of over 60,000 gold, not 1150 total spent. But yeah, I have a degree in engineering and got As in economics and engineering calculus, so I'm well versed in cost-benefit analyses, including opportunity cost and other principles of economics.


6. Re opportunity cost:

In some of my largest cities, I've nearly run out of "opportunity". I have constructed all the worthwhile buildings available, I am constructing military, but there is a limit to how much military I can use.

8: Final thoughts:

If you think Cristo is not OP, please identify a wonder (or 2 or 3?) that provides more significant benefits relative to its cost.

We're clearly very far apart in our overall views, but I can address three of your questions.

I ninja-edited in that I meant 1g/turn for 250 turns, not 250.

If you've run out of opportunity in your cities, that indicates to me that tech is going too slowly, not that CR is OP.

As for awesome wonders, almost are are useful in GEM but I feel that SoL, the one that gives a free space elevator, and Louvre are really strong for the value.

Finally note that I'm not saying CR is balanced or unbalanced as is, I'm just saying it may not be as OP as your one game seems to demonstrate.

 

[Thalassicus]

Based on your feedback, in the GEM v1.11 revised tech tree I moved Cristo Redentor later 1 tech column (from c13 plastics to c14 ecology), and increased the cost 25%.

I also buffed the Statue of Liberty from 1 to 2 production per specialist. This makes them opposites of each other:

• +2 of every yield for one specialist : Cristo Redentor
• +2 of one yield for every specialist : Statue of Liberty

I believe the combination of these three changes should address the problem you described.

 

[justinnyc4now]

Based on your feedback, in the GEM v1.11 revised tech tree I moved Cristo Redentor later 1 tech column (from c13 plastics to c14 ecology), and increased the cost 25%.

I also buffed the Statue of Liberty from 1 to 2 production per specialist. This makes them opposites of each other:

• +2 of every yield for one specialist : Cristo Redentor
• +2 of one yield for every specialist : Statue of Liberty

I believe the combination of these three changes should address the problem you described.

Thanks Thal, I just installed your latest stuff, gonna try it out. I really like Ghandi now! Thanks for all your great work!