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General A New Dawn discussion

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Rezca, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Basically I only go to war when I have to. And I prefer to spend the rest of the time building up my empire so that any wars I do get into are short and devastating.

    Speaking of the game. How do I view foreign city connections? I can view domestic ones but that's it.

    EDIT:
    Speaking of wars though, I would actually much prefer if a culture would not vanish once you conquer its related nation out of existence. It certainly is unrealistic and promotes war mongering. I am not sure how technically feasible that is to do.
    But if that was the case I could see a case being made for some sort of national project to be included that gets rid of it all for you... for the price of your soul and the AI hating you for being literally Hitler.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  2. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Chieftain

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    Talk about getting screwed over.

    Game High to Low,
    2nd Civ - Indian rebels aaarrggghhh!!!! :mad: WTF
    Situation - 1 city, 2 spears, 1 mounted infantry, 2 archers in wilderness, AWAY from my city.
    Prognosis - LONG uphill battle ahead,if I don't get CRUSHED by the No 2 Civ, whom I seem to be rebelling AGAINST!!! Other cities are going to a 3rd Civ, in Jayavarayaman II
    I just got switched, as rebellion and losing city, dropped them to No 2 score.
     
  3. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    That's already how things work AFAIK, and I've been bringing up how much I hate it for a long, long time now. Current game it took eleven turns for OCC tundra-locked Sitting Bull to finally go away, and I've had "should be dead but arent" nations still conduct diplomacy - examples being vassalizing to some other nation (then usually dying immediately after), trading techs with other countries, bribing other nations to cease relations with me / declare on me, and overall just sticking around being a PITA when their empire consists of..... Nothing.

    If I wanted to deal with a cityless nation that can't ever possibly recover from their situation, I'd enable "Require Complete Kills". That's what that option is for, and it's terribly annoying to have AI's sticking around after they should have disappeared when the option isn't even on. Sometimes they disappear quickly, but the longest Iv'e had one linger was around thirty turns, during which he bribed two AI's to declare on me and then vassalized to a neighbor only to die on the following turn.
     
  4. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the AI's culture and not their presence in the game. If you kill a player or AI they should be dead and gone. But right now doing that also magically erases all of their culture from the cities you just conquered. And that leads to the frankly stupid situation where if you had conquered half his empire those cities would be full of :( but because you killed it they are instead 100% :). And that encourages fighting every war to the bitter end no matter what instead of more reasonable conclusions.
     
  5. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Ah I misinterpreted then.

    With the Unhappiness magically vanishing, that IMO should linger on - if not get an additional penalty if you succeed in fully wiping out the civilization the cities originally belonged to (Like in Stellaris if you conquer a planet there's a long period of happiness penalty for being recently conquered)
     
  6. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    This type of stuff encourages me to take things to even further unreasonable levels... Raze. Everything. Even 20-pop cities with several Wonders. I keep a stack of Settlers, Missionaries and defender units behind my main line to claim the new land. Avoids all the harsh penalties and lets me specialize the city as I see fit.

    I seriously hate the way things work if you just conquer a neighbor's cities. They just sit there and revolt for 20 turns at a time and never become useful because you can't get anything built. Unless of course, you destroy the other nation in full. Or dump a truckload of culture bombs into them and have your entire army sit as garrison. Even then, you have problems like you have both described.

    It's an annoying mechanic and I just bypass it entirely by burning everything to the ground.
     
  7. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Chieftain

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    More on my 'screw over' with my 2nd Civ.

    I managed to take 3 Barbarian cities, all within 5 tiles of each other, to the NE of my 1st city. As this city is completely surrounded by culture of the Khmer (revolts all the time to them), the Zulu's, (Declares war on my master all the time).

    I decided to just make archers in Yasodharapura, and trade carts, to send to my NEW CORE EMPIRE.

    As a result, I completely abandoned the city, after the revolts had ceased, due to bribes, and sent in total 8 archers and 3 trade carts.

    It seemed I was in a war with Shaka, must have happened BEFORE I was able to break vassalage. Shaka, kept sending catapults to bombard the city, but wouldn't take it, a long bow would walk out, look about and scoot back home.

    FINALLY Shaka, decides its not a TRAP!!!, and takes the city.

    Well, BOOM!!!!!. I was running Republic, and had to reduce slider to 15% science to be in green. NOW, its 100% 39 :gold: in green, and the AI's still love gifting me techs. Vassalage, Feudalism, Smithing and a few others.

    I now have 3 cities, all are building a settler, to settle 3 more cities, I have plenty of green fields space to expand into. A couple of AI's have settled an 'orphan' city, so ripe and juicy. Also my previous fellow vassal, having also broken free, has 2 'orphaned' cities way from his core Empire, and they are just dripping with juice. Longbows and Catapults only as defense.

    Once I settle cities for Stone, lead, and 3rd yet to be determined, I'll start to spam out swords to take whats rightfully mine.

    On my previous civ, the Babylonians, they just kept going from strength to strength. But has fallen on the Military strength from DOUBLE every one else on the continent, to 8th Position, with the top 2 on THIS continent, next 5 on 2nd continent. The previous 2nd placed civ, was Shaka, he's fallen to the Bottom of the Table, but now has risen to 4th last on continent. Probably due to taking Yasodharapura off me certainly helped him out.

    I did have a 2nd option, I could have stayed with the 1 city, but it was constrained, and I'd have to have taken land off Shaka. Trouble is, Gilgamesh, was also declaring war on my master and me, and he's to the North, in reach of the Shaka cities, then I'd have to have dealt with Sumerian troops constantly invading my new cities, not nice.

    I feel I've made the right decision, even though I lost a great city. I lost a settled great general, city with barracks, archery range, Tannery, great production, was gaining tiles with culture, but Bordered Suryavarman II's capital city.

    All in all, looking great for my 2nd civ, much better then when I 1st took over. Gaining a great spy from the 'Assassin' event and launching a golden age made all the difference. Though I made a HUGE ERROR in taking 20 turns of anarchy to switch to Republic,Caste and Public works (for the Hammers) which caused all my rebellions in capital. I had to switch back to Monarchy to stop it and gain the tiles. Later in Golden age, I was able to swap to Pacifism and Divine cult, once I picked up a religion. (though I've lost it now, having lost Yasodharapura).

    ALL the AI's on this continent, bar 2, no guesses who, either are Friendly (3) or are pleased (4) with me. Shaka and Gilgamesh both :mad: me lolol I'm their worst enemy :cry: . But the really funny thing is, I'm currently GANDHI, the favorite ***** of the AI's.

    All in all, a fun and challenging game so far, now I await the 3rd civ screw over. last 3 tries I've;
    1. Been exiled to a 2 tile Island, off shore from the Russians.
    2. Vassaled with 1 city, completely surrounded by Culture, with virtually now free tiles to settle into and only 3 tiles in my culture.
    3. Stuck in Green pocket of Tundra, with 10 tiles of Ice to traverse to get out, only room for 4 cities.

    *Edit* Just a note, I'm playing with some self imposed rules.
    1. I can't build Workers.
    2.The only siege I can build are the ram line. (For knocking down culture only.) I can upgrade (bit of a cheat I know) I only build 4 max anyway.

    Also, I've been chasing a stack of 8 or so Barbarian workers, that keep moving from city to city as I take them, I really want that worker stack, and need to take a city in one turn to get them. The AI's just let them roam about past their borders all the time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  8. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I have not had such drastic problems my self. But I can see your viewpoint. Still, being motivated to completely destroy players because that magically erases their culture is just as stupid. If anything I feel the whole thing needs to be balanced so that it becomes a challenge but one that can be overcome by investing in doing so.

    To put it in a bullet point format since it's late at night:
    1. Killing a civilization should not erase their culture and the negative effects there off in the cities you conquered.

    2. The negative effects of foreign culture in a city need to be capped and a balanced so that If you take absolutely no action to redeemer the situation they are going to be a constant and present annoyance and productivity drop but not a crippling one.

      The idea being that a conquered city is newer going to be as good as one you founded your self, but that is a tradeoff you get in exchange for taking a fully developed and grown city. AND most importantly it is something you can fix over a reasonable period or via resources.

      So like a setup where it's something like for example 1 :( per 10% culture capped at 5. Annoying, but not cripplingly so. Just enough to be noticeable and annoy you into investing time to create a plan to say caravan rush culture buildings in those cities.

    3. Razing cities should bear with it massive diplomacy penalties as you have become a genocidal force of maniacal super evil to discourage the whole raze and replant strategy you described. Doubly so if a city has wonders or a large population. Triply so if it's a holy city.

    4. Cities with just 1 pop should not be auto-razed when conquered.
     
  9. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    This is fine, as long as a similar cap is made with Revolutions mechanics.
    I'm absolutely okay with this. I don't mind being the bad guy. :mwaha:
     
  10. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Agree. Afforess has introduced a new mechanic that makes culture disappear slowly anyway, so turning off this mechanic wont brake anything on the long run.

    Not sure if it is needed.

    The AI makes no such plans.

    Agree (partially).
    • With the new razing mechanic any city is at population 1 before being razed. I think it would be better and easier if the penalty would depend on cultural level. That should be easier to track down.
    • Razing a city with wonders is already a punishment. I don't think it needs to be further punished.
     
  11. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    Where is this being discussed? When will this be added?
     
  12. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    1 or 2 years ago :)
    I meant of course: turning off the original mechanic that erases the culture when a civ is destroyed won1t brake anything.
     
  13. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    Isn't it technically still there, though? I know it doesn't show up in the city screen, but the amounts of culture on the tile are still stored, right? After conquering one of my neighbors, the revolts following the victory spawned a TON of units for the recently destroyed civ.
     
  14. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I honestly can't speak about those as I play without revolutions for reasons of personal taste. But yes, obviously some sort of balancing would be required for that.

    It's just to make sure that you don't end up in some bizarro situation where you have 10 :( or something and than you really can't build anything because the city just refuses to work and starves. I've not seen it my self but heard of it happening.

    Mind you, what I wrote was a demonstrative example and not an actual instruction. I ain't saying you should literally implement 1 per 10% capped at 5 but rather that it should be something linked to culture and capped at something else, adjusted for balance by all sorts of factors. So like you'd probably also adjust it for map size to account for the extra bonus resources, era, or devs know what else.

    The AI gets all sorts of freebies anyway though. So having it also get some sort of extra :) or some other cheaty way to balance things out is not out of the question.

    What ever works.

    Obviously not punishment enough for some people...
     
  15. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    I wish I had taken a screenshot, but I had some absurd number of unhappiness (from all sources) approaching 60 in a city of 20-ish pop. Every city I took over had at least 10 :mad: from Nationality until I completely destroyed the other nation. I don't know if I could have contained the chaos that would have happened if I had not.

    Mechanics like these are just unfun and reduce the viable ways to achieve victory. I mean look at me; I exploit the razing mechanic to avoid all of this nonsense. I shouldn't have to do that in order to win via domination or conquest.
     
  16. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    AI cheating is not a good solution. As far as I've seen the AND team tries to avoid it and :clap:for it.
    Than let them do it. The goal is not to force the players into one play style but the opposite: Fozman razes cities but "he doesn't want to".
     
  17. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    60... how the hell did that happen?

    Good point.
     
  18. Fozman

    Fozman Chieftain

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    Really wish I had a save at the worst of it to take a screenshot, but IIRC:
    • 20+ from population
    • 10+ from nationality
    • 7+ from "feeling rebellious"
    • 5+ from "nation too large" (I was at 40-ish cities toward the end of absorbing the enemy)
    • 5+ from "distance" (very large continent, and these guys stretched far away from my capital)
    • 2 to 4 from denied requests for independence
    • 3 from Taxation (President & Liberal)
    • 1 to 6 from slaves (trying to shrink population and get culture/happy buildings ASAP)
    • 1 or 2 from religious infighting
    • 1 or 2 for war
    As you can see, it stacks to the moon. The highest number I recall was about 56 or 57. But miraculously, after taking the last city, it dropped to about 25-35 depending on the population remaining in each. If I had not committed to total destruction, I'd be dealing with 20-30 more :mad: per city. The mechanics at work here incentivize complete Civ destruction or simply razing everything.
     
  19. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I see now. Scary. And definitively not what you want happen.
     
  20. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    Sorry for the off-topic questions, may I ask:

    1) Why was city razing removed? (if it's removed, can't see the option anywhere, including BUG) I'm capturing barbarian cities, but don't wanna keep them since they are on tundra tiles and complete garbages.

    2) Why was 'unhappiness from tax rate' from most civics removed? [I really liked the concept, but that's ofc just personal opinion]
     

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