General A New Dawn discussion

IIRC Piracy is intended to be a age of sail thing but get extended to more modern Ships for realism purpose (there are some WW2 examples). With this, digital and future age tech (scanning, registration, satellites etc) applying hide nationality like piracy to a modern warship would be silly.

But I agree that it would be appropriate on at least the early subs.

I actually do hope to loose the piracy promotion when upgrading a pirate ship to the no-pirate ships age level.

I 'unno, there seems to be plenty of cases of piracy in space-age fiction like Mass Effect, Halo, etc so I wouldn't rule that out entirely... :D

The 'Hidden Nationality' thing just means they can't be traced back to the people who hired them. For all intents and purposes, they're separate factions - insurrectionists, actual pirates, whatever - that either own or stole the hardware they're using and are utilizing it against others. Sure you scan or register the people on board, but that's just confirming what you already know: They're hostile to you :p

Sails or fusion engines, there's gonna be someone out there that doesn't answer to your (or any) government and is hostile to anyone who does, or are just mercenaries selling their services to whoever pays the most. So I don't see the point in having them simply phase out magically just because you're not using a sailing boat anymore. If the IDs and scanning and etc is going to be the reason for Hidden Nationality ships disappearing, then the Loyalty promotion for Spies should obsolete as well. (At 'Thought Scanning' maybe?)




On a different topic, can anyone confirm if removing a religion from a city - any city in the world - via the WorldBuilder makes that religion's Holy City disappear as well in standard BTS? Whenever I do so in AND, that particular religion's Holy City gets "demoted" and is no longer a HC. Like Judaism - My second city was the Holy City, and I used the WB to plant it in two of Charlemagne's cities, and as a quick test removed Judaism from the second city of his I put it in. Right as I did so, the Holy City icon in my city vanished.

In this scenario, it's not too hard to just put it back - but there's been times on larger maps with more cities, late in the game, where I forget or simply never knew what city that religion's HC originally landed in, and putting it back in its proper place after the WB nuked it isn't possible.

So, kind of asking if this was something that AND somehow introduced, or if it was a problem with the WB since BTS days I just never noticed?
 
Its more rooted in a reality comparison. If a modern (even a last gen) US Aircraftcarrier strikes somewhere no one would believe that this was a unknown party/freelancing piracy act. We are not talking modern Somali pirates on a work boat here, but expensive high end military vessels.

Now that you mention it about the HC. I was pretty sure my Vikings founded Hinduism & Judaism (among others), but in both cases there is no HC listed anymore. I only used the builder once to move a (non-religious) wonder from one city to another (both not HCs) because I accidentally had not the unlimited wonders checked at session creation.

edit: Its only the Judaism which lost a HC for unknown reasons. Kemetism was the other gone, but of that I know it was another civ that had it but that city probably got razed in one of their countless wars.
 
@Resca

I agree in both issues: Piracy and Missiles.

Missiles: I used them only once or maybe twice, but found them to troublesome and useless. I won't protest to remove it, but if it was a new feature I would be against it.

Though there is some wisdom in what Ipex said. Will have to give it a try...

Piracy: Sure it would look "strange" on some ships (Aircraft carriers) but I can accept it on most of them, especially on those, that are stealth (subs, Stealth Destroyer, etc).
 
The reason the missiles exist is that the Cruise Missile (originally Guided Missile) comes from original BTS. I guess it's there to be a powerful, one-shot, non-nuclear weapon. The other missiles are just there to expand the concept. Personally, I want to both not get rid of anything that does come from core BTS and try to expand concepts that were one-shot (like War Elephant, Machine Gun, and Cruise Missile).
 
The reason the missiles exist is that the Cruise Missile (originally Guided Missile) comes from original BTS. I guess it's there to be a powerful, one-shot, non-nuclear weapon. The other missiles are just there to expand the concept. Personally, I want to both not get rid of anything that does come from core BTS and try to expand concepts that were one-shot (like War Elephant, Machine Gun, and Cruise Missile).
We could just increase the strength or lower the cost to make them more useful.
 
Last time I got so far that I could build Missiles, I had them built in cities that had nothing better to do, and had enough money going around that I didn't need them on Wealth.
They are useful situationally, but are not fundamental like Bombers or Artillery, for example.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13971038 said:
We could just increase the strength or lower the cost to make them more useful.

I'm not arguing with that. I started doing some calculations, and I realized that comparing the missiles to the bombers that are available tells me that the missiles are really underpowered. In BTS, the Bomber is Strength 16, while the Guided Missile is Strength 40, and are both available at about the same techs (Bomber is Radio + Flight, Guided Missile is Radio + Rocketry, no more than 1 tech after Bomber and possibly before it). Our Bomber is 52, while Cruise Missile is only 50.

Depending on whether or not you really think of Airship as a bomber or not (I don't know if its strength can ever come into play), the regular Missile needs to have its Strength increased from 20 to somewhere between 25 and 100. The BTS Guided Missile/Bomber strength ratio is 2.5. If you just go by the Airship's strength (which is technologically equal to the Missile), then you get 25. If you just go by Early Bomber, then the Missile strength should go up to 100. I don't think it needs to be THAT high.

Cruise Missile falls about halfway between A-10 and Stealth Bomber. An approximate Strength here would be 225 (average of A-10's 70 and Stealth Bomber's 110 times 2.5). Smart Missile is halfway between Stealth Bomber and Orbital Bomber, so averaging those two (110 and 200) and multiplying by 2.5 gives about 387.

Ranges should also be increased a little. The missile range in BTS is 1/2 the bomber range. I don't know if we want a factor higher than that, but I think Cruise Missile should be range 8 and Smart Missile 14 (again, this is by averaging the ranges of the nearest bombers).
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13971170 said:
Your proposal sounds very reasonable to me. :)

Agreed here as well. Stronger missiles make sense if they're intended to be a one-use attack against a single unit - Biological Warfare missles aside.



On an unrelated note I've got two questions that have been on my mind for a while...

Does Protective really need the free Drill II on archery units? I cannot count the times I've had a Protective neighbor nearby who's never seen warfare (ANd missed the free Great General techs) and somehow has a swarm of Drill IV Archers/Longbows all over the place - which is near impossible to counter practically in the Classic and Medieval. Not without horrifyingly large losses on your side for every handful of archers you manage to kill.


Every time I see a Protective empire, they've always got huge amounts of Drill IV's everywhere (And Monarchy with the 50% production of archers does not help at all), and the AI are almost helpless when it comes to warring with a nation like that.
Has anyone else had a problem with Protective in the early game?


The other thing is AI resource trading... I know in Vanilla Civ there were things that were taken out in Warlords/BTS, one of which was being able to see what units a Transport had with them (I.e. Mousing over an AI galley might show an Archer and a Settler). Was being able to see what resources AI were trading each other removed in Warlords/BTS as well, or was that hidden in AND somehow?
By this I mean, an AI (Egypt) trading a neighbor (Russia) 7gpt for Ivory, but on the Diplomacy board it won't show that they're trading these when you mouse over their icons anymore.
 
Do we want to give Missiles collateral damage as well as extra strength? I'm not sure how much of a tradeoff is appropriate.
 
Do we want to give Missiles collateral damage as well as extra strength? I'm not sure how much of a tradeoff is appropriate.

I think a very small amount of colat.damage in the early missiles (Like 25% to 2 ~ 3 units, as an off the top of my head example) might be okay, depending on the final Strength value it'll be carrying, and a higher spread for the Smart Missile.

The Biological Missiles seem to be more about doing damage across a large number of units, while the traditional missiles seem more about doing a large amount of damage to a focused area: so it'd do severe damage to one target and then moderate damage to anyone in the immediate vicinity - so not a very high "Up to X number of units" count on the normal missiles.

Those are my thoughts anyway :)
They definitely shouldn't be able to do as much collateral damage to as many units (Either value) as aerial bombers though. Bombers do a spread out attack, missiles are a focused attack.
 
Slowly moving my eternal game speed civ into modern age there is some random stuff that pops into mind:

1. to be on the latest topic: Yeay, more damage for missiles makes sense. :) I remember loving to load my subs & MCs in regular BTS with them but the ones I researched here did not scratched that urge.

2. New Tanks & Blitz promotion: Whose bright idea was it to add a at creation blitz promotion to a unit that has only 1 movement point? ;)

3. slowly moving my eternal game was true till Renaissance. I guess its kind of true to how quickly the real world turned during the industrial/early modern ages. It just feels a bit insane. When I set research to 65% preview of scifi era tech shows 1 tech per turn. Having a massive empire I expect to out-tech a bit, but it does feel fast.

edit: 4. Sonar promotion: Does/shouldn't it add sub detection? AI does not have subs yet, so I don't know if it does.

Last: I love that mod! :D It never felt more frigging super epic in any Civ ever like this in a giant, eternal speed setting to finally set sail with a fleet of ships to discover the new world.
 
The Drill II addition to Protective was Afforess' idea. I think I agree that Drill II is too much. Why don't we substitute something else instead? I looked through the other mods that I have and I found a couple of possibilities. (There were some other things that would have to be implemented, which I'd rather not do.)

One would be giving Protective increased domestic Great General production, like how the Great Wall works. I saw this a couple of times. There is an <iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier> tag that is in the TraitInfos file but is not currently used for any trait. I tested it myself, and it works; the only unusual thing is that changing it doesn't trigger a request for recalculation and the change doesn't kick in unless you do recalculate.

Another would be +1 happiness from certain Protective buildings. The Fairy Tale mod has +1 happiness from Walls and Castle.

A third would be giving Protective increased training speed for particular units. Grand Inquisitions offers it for certain units; not Archers, but some Spear units, some Machine Gun units, and various SAM units.

I think any of these would be useful and not terribly broken. What do you think?
 
The Drill II addition to Protective was Afforess' idea. I think I agree that Drill II is too much. Why don't we substitute something else instead? I looked through the other mods that I have and I found a couple of possibilities. (There were some other things that would have to be implemented, which I'd rather not do.)

One would be giving Protective increased domestic Great General production, like how the Great Wall works. I saw this a couple of times. There is an <iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier> tag that is in the TraitInfos file but is not currently used for any trait. I tested it myself, and it works; the only unusual thing is that changing it doesn't trigger a request for recalculation and the change doesn't kick in unless you do recalculate.

Another would be +1 happiness from certain Protective buildings. The Fairy Tale mod has +1 happiness from Walls and Castle.

A third would be giving Protective increased training speed for particular units. Grand Inquisitions offers it for certain units; not Archers, but some Spear units, some Machine Gun units, and various SAM units.

I think any of these would be useful and not terribly broken. What do you think?

Why not stay on units. Instead of Drill2 (which is more of a offensive than a defensive promo IMO) something like City Defense1?

In my current game my dutch neighbor has (probably) that feat since massive amount of drill4 units. At some point in the ancient past they took japan but besides that nothing too out of the usual. They rank somewhere in the middle. Biggest AI is Gilgamesh.

Drunk first strike immune viking knights probably crushed once to often into the dutch archer army :D
 
I like the great general idea better because some nations in the history have emerged great generals during defensive wars.
 
Protective has always been City Garrison I and Drill I; the issue is Drill II on top of that. Two promotions can be reasonable depending on how good they are. I wouldn't want Aggressive to get anything more than Combat I. Three promotions is probably too much. Nomad leaders build Recon units with three promotions (Flanking I, Guerrilla I, and Speed) but that is limited to only the three Recon units.
 
The boost to Great Generals sounds good. There's already one for global +% to GG emergence, this one is only when on defense... So it'd have a slightly higher rate I imagine?

Not sure if those two traits are paired up on any leader... Would have quite a high Great General rate when invaders come!
 
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