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General A New Dawn discussion

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Rezca, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    Imperialistic is +100% GG emergence at all times. Charlemagne and Hirohito have both. Do we need to lower Imperialistic at all? Afforess gave it the second culture level to start to bring it up.
     
  2. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I'd say the imperialistic trait can afford lowering the extra GG creation rate to 50% with little worry. It is overall a pretty good trait.
     
  3. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    I don't feel the need to lower Imperialistic.
    I also like the iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier idea and think it should be at least 50%. Or even 100% ?
     
  4. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Are there any AI's that *won't* declare war at Friendly relations in AND? I always kinda figured that Charlemagne was one that would only do so at Cautious (Not sure about Pleased), or are these thresholds different in AND?

    Such a shame, we were Friendly for centuries and then blam - war out of nowhere :B

    I don't have Ruthless AI on, since I dislike that option - but I do have Aggressive AI on. That's probably a large part right there, if not the cause of it, but in my experiences AI that would leave you alone at Friendly would continue doing so unless relations soured. Even with it on (And games tended to be pretty war-deprived unless a ton of warmongers like Alex and Monty were present without this option, and AI demanding tribute? Rarely ever happens.) most AI tended to avoid being picky with you if they were at Friendly. Cautious and Pleased was another matter, but the only AI I knew that would war at Friendly was Catherine. Is that different in AND or does Aggressive AI really remove that 'shield' against aggression at Friendly?

    (Mostly curiosity in asking, so I can better understand how to approach Game Options and Diplomacy in the future. I'm used to Friendly being the "We won't ever attack you" status you want at least ONE AI to be at, with the noted exception of Catherine of course)
     
  5. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    For the same reason: Could someone, please explain the difference between Aggressive AI and Ruthless AI? In the past I thought that Ruthless AI is an "upgrade" version of Aggressive AI so it's best to select both. But reading the posts I'm starting to realize they are different... Just don't understand the difference :crazyeye:
     
  6. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Unless Aggressive AI works differently in AND - for whatever reason - it basically just enhances AI aggressiveness. They're more likely to declare war and demand tribute or break treaties/trades (I've rarely seen AI cancel Open Borders or etc, but I used to see them do it a lot in Vanilla/Warlords)


    In Ruthless AI, all AI are basically treated as a mix between Catherine, Montezuma, Alexander, and Ghenghis Khan - they'll declare war on you over nothing at any relations (Even Friendly), cancel agreements again for little to no reason and be very quick to bribe others into their wars - even if they're not at war with that leader themselves (In the past, I've had Friendly AI cancel things with me and then declare war on the following turn, then bribe two others into the war several turns later.) and so on.

    Basically, Aggressive just makes the AI a bit tougher and less likely to sit around being all passive for the whole game, while Ruthless AI just makes them absolutely off the wall insane. Perfect only if you're not planning on trying to be diplomatic in your games or expect to have an AI as a buddy for more than a few turns. As such, I never use it anymore. I *want* to have at least one AI to have my back and be partners with, which isn't possible with Ruthless AI.


    In BTS, most AI will leave you alone when you're Friendly with them - AFAIK, regardless of your power ratio with them. It's the one thing that will keep a weak AI from being killed by their neighbor: Having Friendly relations with them. Some AI, like Bismark, will declare war at Pleased but not Friendly, but most would be reluctant to at that relation.
    Ruthless AI does away with all that 'Diplomatic Shielding', and I guess Aggressive AI weakens it a bit too (Unless that's AND tweaking)
     
  7. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    Aggressive AI spends more time devoted to building units, for war, rather then building up its economy, for war.

    They just spam units, units and units, war stupidly, as do all levels of the AI.

    Ruthless, is more likely to make war, bribe in allies, dog pile war etc. They hold a grudge, don't forgive, rarely forget, and once they have an 'enemy' its for LIFE. They'll end up with a -50 attitude with another player, and war with them incessantly.

    Its all contained in the mouse over of the options. Actually its in the Civopedia,
     
  8. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    Not this clearly as the two of you have explained. THX :hatsoff:
     
  9. Randomness

    Randomness ...

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    I usually play with ruthless AI and while they are certainly less predictable, they aren't insane. As far as I can tell, the AI never declares war for no reason but if it has a reason to declare war on you (if you're weak for example) it will do so regardless of your relations.
     
  10. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    They certainly seem insane to me. Their unpredictableness comes pretty close to my definition of Insane :p
    Like Ghenghis Khan and Montezuma in default BTS, they do act pretty mad with Ruthless AI on. Sure, they do have a 'reason' for doing so, but those reasons can seem pretty illogical at times.



    I've asked this before and got no response, but is there a listing of the AND AI leaders for their research/build preferences and at what relations they're not willing to go to war or be bribed into a war at?
    Back when Sulla was doing his AI Survival games, he noted each AI's preferred flavors when it came to building units, wonders, or what sort of research paths (Military, Religious, Cultural...) they tended to take... As well as frequently pointing out the threshold at which an AI wouldn't declare war on someone anymore. Most AI would stop at Friendly - except Catherine - and quite a few like Bismark would do so at Pleased, but not Friendly.

    This is something I'd like to know with AND. I thought Charlemagne was an AI that wouldn't declare war at Friendly, but AND proved me wrong? :confused:
     
  11. dbkblk

    dbkblk Emperor

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    Sorry for the useless post, but I'm afraid I can't answer this.
     
  12. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    I'm not sure and I can't check now but it might be something in the leaderhead XML files. I think they have different probabilities to go at war under different conditions.
     
  13. dbkblk

    dbkblk Emperor

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    I remember that also but this was how the base game was coded. Do you remember if it was changed in RAND?
     
  14. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it's been changed.
     
  15. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Aggressive AI probably increases those probabilities a bit. Doesn't make them guaranteed to go all ally-stabbing, but increases the odds they will if they think it'd benefit them.

    If nothing's changed, then I can still look at the BTS AI and make an educated judgement about who would be best to attempt to befriend and who to keep a very close eye on.
    Amusingly enough, the moment CHarlemagne and I made peace, he went from Cautious to Friendly right off the bat, and we were back to trading a few turns later. Oh, and he accepted an offer to go to war with Korea (Who declared on me while I was defending against Charlemagne) for free :crazyeye:

    That aside, I tend to figure that most AI won't war at Friendly, but if it's probability based then I guess I should still be wary huh? :p
    Aggressive AI that should be a given though, what was I thinking? :crazyeye:

    I'm interested in what these probabilties are though, if they're easy enough to find and make into a list?
     
  16. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    *War Horns blaring*

    I wonder who's declaring on me this time?
    Korea, Mali, the Zulu? All of whom hate my very existence and are equal in power or stronger than me?

    Civ4ScreenShot0381.JPG

    Nope, the Ottomans - who hate the guts of the Zulu and are Furious with them, but instead declare war on someone they've been Friendly with for centuries on end! (We're more or less equal in power too though. 1.1 ratio unlike Charlemagne's 0.4 when he declared war on me - little good that did him, he took and razed a border city on the turn he declared, I took five of his and sold them to Cyrus after we made peace)

    Oh and their declaration triggered the Defensive Pacts I had with Cyrus and Charlemagne for good measure :p
    Does anyone in this world actually respect Friendly relations!!? :crazyeye:

    I've had four people declare war on ME this whole game. Two of them were the "Friendly" AI, neither I'd have pegged as a leader to do so, Bismark I knew would declare at Pleased and he did so, and Isabella in the Ancient era who hated that I founded a different religion than hers. Oh well actually five - since Hirohito also declared on me at one point (He was already furious for me declaring on Isabella and then furious twice over for razing the Holy City of their religion).
     
  17. Randomness

    Randomness ...

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    I really don't know what's going on in your games, but mine are fairly sane. If I play peacefully, the AI doesn't bother me too much aside from the occasional boarder war and even those are rare if I'm not weaker than them. Even in games where I'm more aggressive, I've never seen behaviour like what you're describing... :crazyeye:
     
  18. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    It's been a wild ride for sure, the other continent has seen almost no peace since the middle Classical Era, and three AI's have been bumped off from the near-endless warring over there. I half-expected Charlmagne to declare on me eventually because of the 0.4 power ratio, but I also half expected him not to since the Friendly thing (He and the Ottomans ended up doing so anyway though, as you saw :rolleyes: ). Bismark I was planning on it eventually, since I know from BTS experience he's one of the AI that will plot and or declare war when at Pleased, so when I couldn't get him to Friendly I started getting ready....

    I figure Aggressive AI had something to do with it, though even in all my games of BTS I've never had a "Won't declare at Friendly" AI actually declare when at Friendly like that, and I always have Aggressive AI on. So not sure what went down there either :dunno:



    On another note, I checked the 'Reset options' box in the RevDCM panel in the BUG Options, and then saved my game (Twice) and reloaded.... No longer are my cities all happily sitting at Good/Flat. A few off-continent colonies are now Worsening/RapidWorsening and several cities on the mainland are slowly trickling down... So that's good! Well, it's not good for my cities but it's good to know Rev is working again. Maybe I accidentally touched something at some point and didn't know it, and resetting the settings fixed it for me. :)



    Oh also....
    Civ4ScreenShot0384.JPG

    Does this count as exploiting the AI? :crazyeye:
    This city was suffering from unrest due to my heavy cultural influence, so Charlemagne gifted me it in Diplomacy. On the same turn, I gave it back to him but also asked "What will you give me for this?" instead of gifting it back to him - as the Liberate option was not available - which resulted in this fancy deal here. :lol:


    Eh, on the note of liberation... I've found that liberating a colony (Usually via giving into rebel demands in Revolution) results in a very weak nation being born. One that either is rendered irrelevant as a OCC nation till the end of time, or one that is conquered shortly after - be it by a neighbor or the nation that released them.
    The 2 ~ 5 units they've given (Per city) is hardly worth anything, and often ends up making aggressive leaders nearby start picking on them due to their low power rating.

    If anything, I think they should at *least* be granted a free Golden Age upon being spawned to help them out, since they just won their independance and all that - would be something worth celebrating no? :king:
    A few more units wouldn't hurt either, though I could see that potentially backfiring (The new nation ending up being as strong as / stronger than the one that spawned it), but right now liberated nations I've only ever seen become backwater 1 ~ 5 city nations hidden amongst 20+ city world powers, and they never end up growing out of that. They either remain that way forever, get conquered, or give up their independance to join another nation.

    When a nation is born this way (X Nation has ceded control of <Cities> to Newly Spawned Rebel Nation) I always WB in a handful of extra units, a few workers and scouts, a Settler or two, and a Great General and a Great Spy (The former to help defend their new capitol, the latter as an artificial way to trigger a Golden Age - the AI almost ALWAYS uses the Spy to start one if they can) so they can at least start doing something instead of sitting there waiting for someone to kill them.
     
  19. Tolina

    Tolina trust the pillars with your s e c r e t s

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    The biggest problem with newly released colonies is that they go into a revolution nearly immediately, which, especially in Rev, can be very destructive, as colonies can be spaced out and revolt and stuff.
     
  20. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    I don't agree with the free Golden Age. It happened to me that I was sending my spies to the powerful Khmer to Aid rebel factions that suddenly was overthrown by Siam. I mean 40~60% of Khmer was replaced by the new born Siam. It was really fun :)

    And remember: IRL a nation born by revolution is still in a revolutionary state, usually quite far from a golden era. Celebrations are not the same as a golden age ;)

    What these new civs would need is better AI fitting for their circumstances: Favor military productions for defense purposes and seek the friendship and peace with the strongest and closest powers.


    Now that sounds really a problem. I think newborn civs should receive a big one-time bonus for their rev.index. Like +1000 bonus will make them okay for a while, until their economy and so is stabilized.
     

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