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General discussion for civics.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by raxo2222, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Old news Raxxo, long been aware of this. But thanks for restating for all to see, who are involved in this discussion.
     
  2. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    After more thought on this last night I agree for now. This Gold Modifier addition anywhere can wait till the Civic concerns are fully fleshed out and then analyzed for why it seems to be as reported. It may actually turn out not to be. It may be that the Civics don't have the means to address this. But more than likely I think they do, and can, even without this Pseudo Policy thing ever being needed. Which again after some thought last night I think is more convolutions and unneeded complications.

    Overall the Civics are also too complicated and there in lies the main source of grievances. And sets the stage for "too much Gold" again. If that is a real problem as well. Not saying it isn't but more the degree of problem.
     
    Toffer90 likes this.
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    What I'm hearing from Yudi on this is that it's not quite about whether there's too much gold or not but that he doesn't feel that it's cost beneficial enough to make these civic changes - and what I get from that since in the same breath he is saying there is too much gold, is that the complaint is that we've devalued gold with a massive gold income glut and then tried to cover that up by charging amounts of gold for improvements in civics that appear to be unworth it because there's the general sense that one Commerce type should be fairly equal to the value of another since the core singular commerce yield divides equally into each type of the four commerces. AKA, right now the civics are charging say 4 gold for a + 1 research benefit or 5 gold to a +1 Production, and though it may work on a wholegame level, it makes the end evaluation of a civic change feel like we are simply overcompensating for bad design elsewhere. Perhaps true.

    Theory: By enhancing underlying upkeep costs we can soak gold in a way that doesn't demean its value in trade for other benefits through civics.

    Response to an interesting statement: I don't think complication is automatically diagnosable as an imbalancing problem itself, but it does obfuscate the ability to measure out the tradeoff value between pros and cons in a given civic selection. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to do though. All benefits should be generically comparable, though apples and oranges comparisons are common and tough to figure out a generic value on at times, particularly since so many are game scenario dependent, which is what they should be of course.

    Again, just thinking aloud. Am I anywhere close to understanding your point here, @Yudishtira?
     
  4. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I'm still trying to get a handle on Yudi's core problem and maybe you've deciphered it better than I have been able to do.
     
  5. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    @Toffer, et al,
    I started a new Snail game last night, Large C2C_World map, 7 AI, Immortal. (List of Options used can be provided) Played until I had almost 400 turns done. It's 129938BC and am researching I think Hard Hammer tools.

    For me it was the most excruciating play experience. If it was not for the BUG Option that koshling put in, about advancing turns when you have nothing to do, I would have quit in disgust. . But I'm sticking it out for awhile.

    At 400 turns in I had a treasury of 804 Gold built by finding Natural Wonders that DH set up and the occasional gold from goodie huts. Other wise it would've been much, much worse. I was making 3gold/turn Until I was forced to build a story teller and a watcher. Now it's 1 gold/turn. Maybe it will get better...….maybe...…..

    So if I divide 400 turns by 12 = 33 turns on a blitz game or 400 divided by 6 = 66.67 turns for Normal, I would had much more to do and in a much shorter timeframe as well. Key, Sitting for close to 3 hours for 400 turns of Snail game play is not worth my time. Now extend this to an Eternity game. I can't fathom it would be any different for a majority C2C players. I also think it's presumptuous to think C2C players would see the value in doing overall either. My opinion of course. I know there are players that love it. Like Pit2015 and his scenario.

    Sorry but I can't help how I react to this. Maybe a sedative might help......maybe...…:p

    I am thinking of making a small Modmod that would make Long = 3000 turns and Epic = 4000 turns. I see a place for it amongst the fanbase.
     
  6. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I think Snail/Eons/Eternity are situational - try 20 or more AIs on Huge or Giant map size, preferably Pangea or Dryland setting in C2C_World
    Those could be used to start in later eras if that stuff was working properly and just play in one or other era.

    It would be nice to see modmod with shortened speeds.
    Though remaking calendar for those speeds would be most annoying part.
    Blitz/Normal/Long/Epic/Marathon/Snail/Eons/Eternity
    1000/2000---3000/4000----5000/6000----8000/10000
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Why wouldn't we just add new gamespeeds to increase the variation resolution on gamespeeds? I can see there being reason to allow for more fine tuning capacity for the player.
     
  8. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Mainly because I don't want to directly step on Toffer's toes over this. It is already a big bone of contention in the way we see the Mod being played. I felt by going Modmod it would be less a perceived direct attack.

    But you all would have to decide about your take on it.
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Makes sense. I guess I'm saying the approach would be wiser than a modmod.
     
  10. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    The post you quoted specifically answers all these questions. It's pointless me answering more questions until you start reading the answers.

    There are three avenues of solution that I can see (if you're interested):
    1. Reduce the gold penalties on these civics (I'm tempted to say by 80% but I would settle for 50% initially).
    2. Give them substantial new bonuses to match the penalties.
    3. Give comparable gold penalties to the starting civics as well. Of course, put them on the expansion-limiting upkeep modifiers, so as not to take effect too early.

    When I started writing, I was in favour of option 1, but now 3 looks pretty good.
     
  11. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Perfectly! :worship:
     
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I'm just trying to understand you. It was Not clear to me. and I found the answer were not specific but generalizations. And I said as much. Has nothing to do with reading but the intent behind the message. Sorry for making you repeat yourself in a sense. I was looking for specifics you kept generalizing. And on these Civcs it is specific modifiers that needs to be pointed out that bother you.

    @T-brd,
    Those changes to the Civics were an adjustment to the then Too Much Gold chant going on when SO clearly showed that by the time you got to Modern Era the AI was Imploding upon itself from Crime, Pollution and other things. AI cities shrink to 1 pop. Does this help with the timeframe for you? SO by that time had a treasury of over 4 million Gold.

    @Yudishtira,
    Sorry I have to say this, but you are the Only one to come here and complain about the transitions from each of these early steps in these Civic categories since that time. And that's been since Jan of 2017 as you noted. Only you.

    If I do as you want, Reduce the Maint costs and bump up the tradeoff bonuses then you will have even More gold than you have now. It is a 2-edged sword. And you will get cut either way. Not sure why you do not see this. I don't see a win/win here at all but a loss/loss situation.

    So if I do as you want, what happens when T-brd, DH, Toffer, Raxxo and all the other all start complaining there is even More gold than before. After it becomes evident to more players that there is More in the early Game? Who will bear the brunt of that. It won't be you. But it will be me, because I will be the one that makes the changes. In fact, when I did these originally I was lauded by T-brd and others for doing it. Do you see my dilemma? Or is that not a concern for you? Do I please the 1 and end up angering the many? Or do I anger the 1, who is already upset, but not create a New point of anger from the many?

    I'm going to think about this for a day or 2 before I make any move or change of any kind here.
     
  13. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    There's kinda a max limit there, when starting a scenario or doing a play now, the UI that pops up where you choose your options can only hold so many Handicap and GS options before they disappear off panel, and the game does not provide scroll bar functionality for that specific UI, I think that UI is handled in the .exe, it is certainly not in python.
     
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Ah... I see.
     
  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    And this is why I'm asking for Marathon , at the very least, to be the default GS for the Mod and Not Snail. The Play Now UI cuts off some and needs to be more central.
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Is there actually a default or are we saying for the basis of modder testing and so on? I have moved to Marathon because I find Snail too slow for me. I don't enjoy games where you get a tech every few rounds or faster but Marathon does seem to hit the about the right balanced pace as it stands now.
     
  17. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes, it actually says Snail is the recommend GS. Or the Default GS
     
  18. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  19. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Globals:
    Code:
        <Define>
            <DefineName>STANDARD_GAMESPEED</DefineName>
            <DefineTextVal>GAMESPEED_SNAIL</DefineTextVal>
        </Define>
    GlobalDefines.xml
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    In the game, where is it telling the player that this is the default? And what does this bit of XML do exactly?
     

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