General discussion for civics

[raxo2222]

In the game, where is it telling the player that this is the default? And what does this bit of XML do exactly?

I think this speed is autoselected when first starting mod or when using Play now! (Play a scenario) option in single player menu.

It looks like all it does is emergency in case some gamespeed was deleted to prevent breaking savegames.
CvInitCore.cpp
m_eGameSpeed = (GameSpeedTypes)GC.getDefineINT("STANDARD_GAMESPEED"); // NO_ option?

and XMLLoadUtilitySet.cpp

 

[Thunderbrd]

So there's no reason not to set that to Marathon now instead? Please by all means do it then.

 

[raxo2222]

So there's no reason not to set that to Marathon now instead? Please by all means do it then.

Yeah, I set it to Marathon in SVN.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, I set it to Marathon in SVN.

Thanks!

 

[Toffer90]

In the game, where is it telling the player that this is the default? And what does this bit of XML do exactly?

In addition to that global define there is a hint in load screen:

<Tag>TXT_KEY_ROM_HINT_14</Tag>
<English>Caveman2Cosmos: Mod has been designed for big maps and the for Snail, Eternity, and Epic game speeds.</English>

That hint is a bit outdated.

 

[Yudishtira]

While Joseph is pondering the matter indefinitely, I wondered if anyone else had an opinion.

The categories involved are Government and Power (starting civics Anarchism and Strongman). There is one problem civic in Religion which I would handle differently (see below).

There are three avenues of solution that I can see:
1. Reduce the gold penalties on these civics (I'm tempted to say by 80% but I would settle for 50% initially).
2. Give them substantial new bonuses to match the penalties.
3. Give comparable gold penalties to the starting civics as well. Of course, put them on the expansion-limiting upkeep modifiers, so as not to take effect too early.

Or 0. of course which would be no change.

These are options by the way. You could combine them, but it seems an unnecessary complication.

Not trying to influence you lol, but note that if I/we go with 3., no gold penalties will be reduced, while "Distance" and "Number of Cities" penalties will not affect you unless you expand "too fast".

I suggest I would use 1. for State Church, because it is the only one in the category that has the penalties, so I'm sure it is only ever adopted to soak up excess gold.

 

[Thunderbrd]

#3 has the danger of tipping start of game balances, particularly on the hardest settings, to the point of 'too severe'. Potentially.
#2 would work if there's not too much gold already. One could also enhance the other bonuses potentially, or diversify them further to spread out the benefits.
#1 If it really is possible to do that with compensatory strengthening of gold difficulties elsewhere enough to give room.

Maybe a bit of all 3.

 

[JosEPh_II]

while "Distance" and "Number of Cities" penalties will not affect you unless you expand "too fast".

Not true. Start a new game and after a few turns look into your treasury stats and you will see there is already a combined Dist to Palace (DtP) and Num Cities Maint (NCM) costs that are accruing. They will be small but they are there. And of course increase with each new city you build or capture.

Also a screen shot of your settings from the victory tab and even your savegame would be appreciated.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There are three avenues of solution that I can see:
1. Reduce the gold penalties on these civics (I'm tempted to say by 80% but I would settle for 50% initially).
2. Give them substantial new bonuses to match the penalties.
3. Give comparable gold penalties to the starting civics as well. Of course, put them on the expansion-limiting upkeep modifiers, so as not to take effect too early.

1. might happen but not near what you suggest, more in the 5 to 15% range, if at all.
2. They have bonuses, how Fat do you really want these early Civics to be?
3.The Starting Civics in each category have killed AI expansion when these "gold penalties" were applied in former versions. And where are these "other" mythical expansion-limiting modifiers you speak of?. The Maint Modifier's Are the expansion limiting modifiers.

Are you suffering from version shock? Did you not within the past 3-4 months finally leave v36 or v37 that you were playing? And only recently took up the latest version(s)? You stated you started a Snail game not realizing that it was now 12,000 turns. Evidence that you just recently started playing current SVN or Official v38.5.

Also that you are now in Ancient era (late I think you said) with 21 cities. Yes, you will struggle with gold being eaten by these Maint Modifiers in these specific Civic categories in this time frame. But as you progress thru the Classical into the Med era the bite lessens as there are more offsets. They are set this way for a reason. I think you are having adaptation problems to the new system. Not that the system is borked as you claim.

Finally start bringing some concrete examples instead of generalities, Please.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@ All,
I am working on the whole set of Civics especially the 1st 4-5 in each category.
I will be reducing or even eliminating some early Maint. costs (Mc). Especially those for each starting Civic in a category if it has it. But to counter this reduction in Mcs there will be a corresponding reduction to bonuses, Gold, Hammers, Commerce, and in some cases food, among other things. I will be striving for a smoother transition from each Civic in each group that has been complained about being too much. I can not please everyone though on every Civic. There will be trade offs and you will need to consider the other Civic choices you have made or will make to go to the next in line or to even skip one in line.

These changes will most likely come in stages and not one fell swoop. Lest the process of beginning will "take an indefinite time". This is not a "quick fix" type situation.

All of Pepper's Civics he added for the New Eras will have to be evaluated After these early Civic changes. Many were modeled off of early Civics but none have been thoroughly used or tested because we just don't have enough players reaching these Eras on a regular basis.

So you are forewarned.

 

[JosEPh_II]

1 set of changes committed. Most of the changes are in Gov't, Rule, and Society. Anywhere from the 1st 3 in the set up to the 1st 6 (Society). There were also some changes to other individual civics. In particular the 1st civic in several other categories like Currency, Welfare, and Economy. Spent most of the day checking the resulting changes thru game play.

Next set in a day or 3.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Spent most of the day checking the resulting changes thru game play.

How did they go? I'm usually pretty happy with the results of your civic adjustments so I'm intrigued to see them. Though I'd beg you not to OVERLY simplify them since I know that's one of your leanings. Not to say they need to be big convoluted messes but as long as the designer understands it and the player has a little puzzling out to do to theorize on what's best for him, that's striking the right chords in my book.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Some reducing of starting Maint Costs offset by reduction in bonuses, Give some and take some. Making the transition from the each civic to the next less "jarring" .

But since this is just the 1st set the most noticeable will be when starting a new game.

Not easy to Cut the "Too much Gold" when on the other hand the same players complain about the Maint costs. So some will think this 1st set makes it too easy.

And I really did not strip much out if any. This pass thru was mostly the Modifier's values.

The iHomeAreaMaintModifier and the iOtherAreaMaintModidfier will show up a bit more and in some cases sooner. Overseas cities will cost a bit more in Empire Maint cost, but not to the point you or the AI won't colonize new lands. The offset was reducing the level of NumCities Mc in most cases. Same for those that expand like I do. They will notice the iHome Mc more.

A few big bonus swings were toned down. Example Chiefdom having -10 in all cities but when you get to Caste having that swing 20 points to +10 in all cities, that is toned down on both ends.

So expect a mixed bag with this start.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not easy to Cut the "Too much Gold" when on the other hand the same players complain about the Maint costs.

Yeah that is certainly a quandry.

Sounds like improvements. It should be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[Yudishtira]

If you can't increase maintenance on starting civics, and "No city limits from civics" is on (it is the default setting after all), then forget about using civics to address "too much gold". It can't be done, because remaining in your starting civics will always be an option.

Then the quandary goes away, and you can concentrate on reducing maintenance costs that aren't compensated for.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you can't increase maintenance on starting civics, and "No city limits from civics" is on (it is the default setting after all), then forget about using civics to address "too much gold". It can't be done, because remaining in your starting civics will always be an option.

Then the quandary goes away, and you can concentrate on reducing maintenance costs that aren't compensated for.

Staying in the starting Civcs in each Category is Always a player option. That will never go away. But it's getting the AI to move up the chain at the right time is the key.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If you can't increase maintenance on starting civics, and "No city limits from civics" is on (it is the default setting after all), then forget about using civics to address "too much gold". It can't be done, because remaining in your starting civics will always be an option.

Then the quandary goes away, and you can concentrate on reducing maintenance costs that aren't compensated for.

OK, but when did gold become the only thing to be concerned about in civic choices? Usually it's a lot more important to be concerned about other details. Maybe it is cheapest to have the starting civics but that doesn't immediately mean they are the best civics to have. There's so many other things... so many. The cost is only one factor, and not often even the most important one by a mile.

 

[Yudishtira]

Staying in the starting Civcs in each Category is Always a player option. That will never go away. But it's getting the AI to move up the chain at the right time is the key.

The AI is playing on Noble. It will always have too much gold, and can afford expensive civics just about anytime it likes. Besides, civics are simply the wrong tool for 'programming' the AI.

 

[Yudishtira]

OK, but when did gold become the only thing to be concerned about in civic choices? Usually it's a lot more important to be concerned about other details. Maybe it is cheapest to have the starting civics but that doesn't immediately mean they are the best civics to have. There's so many other things... so many. The cost is only one factor, and not often even the most important one by a mile.

I haven't seen the latest ones, but in the current Government civics until a few hours ago, gold simply dwarfs every other consideration, given that you have the civic city limits deactivated by the default option. There are no limits to expansion, except the size of your continent and the proximity of multiple AI. If the continent is large enough and the AIs far enough away, the sky's the limit (eg. 40 cities in early Medieval as I have now).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I haven't seen the latest ones

I haven't either and it's been a while since I've delved into it myself so I'd have to take a look at what you mean. I do feel that it would be nice to reinstall the values we used to have on the city limits happiness penalties so that if that option was on there's at least that to add to the purpose of the gov civics.

Of course, with gold/maintenance, if the distance and # of city upkeeps (and definitely a powerful other continent upkeep) were made severe on the core default civic and made to diminish as they get more tech advanced, while basic central upkeep becomes more expensive from a very inexpensive starting position, that would also work for the city limiting factor government is supposed to control. Joe is probably right that distance and # of city upkeep can affect the first city/cities strongly too, but the idea of improving gov category civics was always (to the core civ concept on this) to open up the capacity for larger nations, even though in other ways it can be somewhat more penalizing to use a more advanced civic.