General discussion for civics

[IdioticUlt1mara]

Personally I still feel money is a non-factor. The fact that I can run at 100% for almost 90% of the game without building wealth is a problem I feel.

One way I feel could fix that, early game anyways, is the city growth speed. Reducing that will reduce the amount of hammers you make, the amount of commerce you make and ultimately the amount of gold you make. I used to find it a struggle to get to 2 pop before getting Venus now I am usually around 6 pop

Other than that curb stomping trade ships needs done as I find they make so so much money, then again reducing the speed at which cities grow will also help reduce the amount of money trade ships make

 

[JosEPh_II]

I hit it at around 12k BC this game.

Is TD, WFL Options in play in this game?
How many early "Cave" Wonders did you snag during the start of the game?
How many WWs did you get too?
Did you ignore the Education, Crime, and Disease penalties early game as well?
Was your starting location full of resources?
Map and river options upped?

Do you beeline for Tribalism and then beeline for Sed life? Meaning you skip Many Preh techs to get there 1st?

Point is, There are Tons of Options to aid in getting there that early.

Since I do not use maps full of resources (or at 100% settings) or the More rivers etc Option(s), plus I do not use TD, WFL, nor Size matters (which I feel aids in helping the knowledgeable player reach Sed Life faster than the AI) I never reach Sed Life that early. I usually get there on avg between 9 and 8,000BC. Sometimes if my start position is bad 6-5,000BC.

There are enough option to Not Use that no player should reach Sed Life 1st If they are willing to forgo many of the Player Perks we have built into the Game Set up Option List.

 

[JosEPh_II]

What do you propose is the best way to control gold at this stage?

I don't see a "best" single way. I see several paths that I have held back from mostly because of Players flipping out over Maint and other Costs.

And this process I'm going thru with the Civics is a slow slim down. Like peeling an onion one layer at a time.

The HomeAreaMaintModifer is a Powerful Empire costing tool. That was always there, just unused, in various categories like Gov't, Power, Rule. and Society (which has had heavy DtP and NumC Maint usage in the past).

Using DtP and/or Num Cities Maint costs is a non factor until you can expand so adding it to starting Civics does Nothing, . Only after you have more than 1 city will either do anything. So they do not address early game pre tribalism gold.

Plus I still have whole categories that have only had a minimum of Tweakage so far. I noticed last night that I had not implemented the changes to early Military Civics that I have in my notes. Your bring up Tribal Warfaremade me look at them again. But then again most of these are not in play Until you reach Tribalism. And as for Banditry, if I had not allowed the +5% Gold in Capitol to be there, then it's usage would have been even more curtailed for the builder player. Although a still Must Have for the Criminal Usage players like you.

Too many factors for me anyway to say yet if there is a Best way. And looking at as many factors as I can is a slow process. But I do have some options to reduce Gold early game. As once upon a time my Goal was to have the Player at about 70% Research slider for majority of early game. This level I feel would slow my beloved way of expansion down and everyone else's too. You realize that as an expansionist I'm gritting my teeth over some of the choices that I will have to make and am making. But I also know that the Mod's play Must reach at least to the Information Era to be a better Mod. The days of Caveman to Classical or Caveman to Medieval has to be corrected even if it Hurts Bad!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is TD, WFL Options in play in this game?

Yes but not for players. WFL doesn't have any effect until Ancient either. TD didn't keep the AI from falling behind quickly, and now, in the ancient, even WFL AND TD aren't giving them enough to keep up or catch up despite us outgrowing them as well. I believe they are too stressed by fast city growth to expand properly. The larger the city, the more they must meet prerequisite demands to unlock the willingness to expand.

How many early "Cave" Wonders did you snag during the start of the game?

None

How many WWs did you get too?

I got one of the LLs that focused on production. Might have had a few extra gold from that. None others that give gold.

Did you ignore the Education, Crime, and Disease penalties early game as well?

No but I don't heavily prioritize it. At this stage though I was making sure all numbers were pretty optimal.

Was your starting location full of resources?

There were a few I think but nothing too dramatic.

Map and river options upped?

If your capital isn't on a river and coast, it's flat out not a game worth playing. So yes, I definitely use a lot of rivers.

Do you beeline for Tribalism and then beeline for Sed life? Meaning you skip Many Preh techs to get there 1st?

Not usually. There are more effective tactics.

 

[JosEPh_II]

After our discussion yesterday I realized some thing that has been missing. The early game is all about the Capital City up to Tribalism. Reduce the Capital Cities Commerce Modifiers in every applicable Category and the Gold Glut and too fast Research become manageable.

Been working all day on the Opening Civics in each category and in many cases the next civic after the initial Civic. I'm in a Normal GS game on Emperor and at turn 149 I have a treasury of 141 gold with -1 gold/turn at 100% research. Much less than I would normally have. I have a couple more tweaks and then I will commit. To see how this effects a game a new game will be needed.

An AI beelined Druidism 20 turns earlier but I still have 3-4 techs to go before I'm into that column. So research is slower to start. The pace picks up as you get to the next level in a Civics category for most Civics.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Been working all day on the Opening Civics in each category and in many cases the next civic after the initial Civic. I'm in a Normal GS game on Emperor and at turn 149 I have a treasury of 141 gold with -1 gold/turn at 100% research. Much less than I would normally have. I have a couple more tweaks and then I will commit. To see how this effects a game a new game will be needed.

Sounding much better.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Sounding much better.

At one point I had it where on Normal GS at game start it was taking 31 turns to research either Nomadic Life or Languages. I was getting 1 research pt per turn. Gold was only gotten from Goodie huts as the Gold per tuen was 0.1 while maint per turn was -0.72. But I thought that might just be a tineey tiny bit too much.

 

[Thunderbrd]

At one point I had it where on Normal GS at game start it was taking 31 turns to research either Nomadic Life or Languages. I was getting 1 research pt per turn. Gold was only gotten from Goodie huts as the Gold per tuen was 0.1 while maint per turn was -0.72. But I thought that might just be a tineey tiny bit too much.

Yeah... as I said, it's very possible to go too far the other way too.

Bear in mind also I need to adjust the overall amount of food to get a population so that's going to have a secondary impact on this as well, as Ultimara stated above. Growth is another crazy imbalanced spot right now, as you may notice through a playthrough.

 

[JosEPh_II]

1 place to help curb City growth is the boost that Education level Intuitive and Brilliant add to the early game. Both give this: <iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>10</iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>. This should be lowered for both with Intuitive at only 2 and Brilliant at 5. As these 2 come into play in the Preh and Ancient Eras. The flip side (Negative ED Level like Foolish) though is fine how it is.

Back to Civics and the last adjustments, need some feedback from those that play GS like Long thru Marathon. Especially in the time for researching a new tech and how long it takes to get to Sed Life. I can not test all the GS and I (sorry Toffer) don't care if Snail Eoon or Eternity takes +/-4000 turns to get to Sed Life. But I do about Normal thru Marathon Game Speeds.

I think I will need to ratchet back the Research nerf eventually. The Gold nerf seems to be working well so far up thru Tribalism.

Again input from players starting new games Is needed. Thanks!

 

[Thunderbrd]

1 place to help curb City growth is the boost that Education level Intuitive and Brilliant add to the early game. Both give this: <iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>10</iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>. This should be lowered for both with Intuitive at only 2 and Brilliant at 5. As these 2 come into play in the Preh and Ancient Eras. The flip side (Negative ED Level like Foolish) though is fine how it is.

That's a penalty, not a bonus. It reflects that more educated citizens on average breed less, which is a proven fact. In fact, with education being more challenging, it's a small part of the problem when it falls lower and thus the city breeds faster.

The core issue with growth is that we reduced early game growth penalties on early civics with reducing the use of that tag. However, I feel that's fine right now because it really shows we need to correct the core underlying formula to make it more expensive at the base rather than assigning huge growth penalties in the early game as we were.

 

[JosEPh_II]

That's a penalty, not a bonus.

Ah yes I forgot that. If it were a -10 then the City pop would grow 10% faster. Kind of a Backwards formula if'n you ask me.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ah yes I forgot that. If it were a -10 then the City pop would grow 10% faster. Kind of a Backwards formula if'n you ask me.

Yeah, I agree but I didn't make the tag, just added it to traits. And at the time I wasn't experienced enough to see how odd the tag is in the way it is named and designed.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well somehow the AI (being on Noble Difficulty) is not impacted like any Player with a higher Difficulty than Noble thru my recent Civic changes. This is frustratingly bad. The AI should bear the same impact as the Player thru Civics no matter the Player difficulty. This is a code thing afaik. I can not fix this because I don't know where the heart of the problem lies.

This also highlights the undercutting of Civics by the AI. Basically Civic choices don't really matter to the AI it would seem. I hope this is Not true.

Perhaps all the boost the AI has been given as the Player difficulty increases has Not been warranted? Perhaps the AI should just have the same set of modifiers for Every Difficulty and not given Boosts?

 

[Toffer90]

Perhaps all the boost the AI has been given as the Player difficulty increases has Not been warranted? Perhaps the AI should just have the same set of modifiers for Every Difficulty and not given Boosts?

The AI is too easy to outperform as it is. I would say the bonuses they get from game difficulty are warranted. At least until the AI brain code is improved significantly.

This also highlights the undercutting of Civics by the AI. Basically Civic choices don't really matter to the AI it would seem. I hope this is Not true.

Civic modifiers does affect the AI just as much as the player though, but the bonuses and penalties from civics are overshadowed by the bonuses the AI get from the games difficulty level and are thus not that noticeable in the bigger picture.

 

[SirJohnEh]

Again input from players starting new games Is needed. Thanks!

Hi Joseph. I am starting a new game soon, and will post my input as requested above, plus game saves at era transition points. A couple of questions on specific set-up options to best help your analysis:
- any preference for specific game speed within the "Long thru Marathon" range?
- would like to run with Complex Traits on (would be my third time), but won't if it complicates your analysis
- any other game customization options, map set-up or BUG option settings that I should specifically use or avoid for consistency with your previous measurements?

 

[Thunderbrd]

The AI is too easy to outperform as it is. I would say the bonuses they get from game difficulty are warranted. At least until the AI brain code is improved significantly.

Civic modifiers does affect the AI just as much as the player though, but the bonuses and penalties from civics are overshadowed by the bonuses the AI get from the games difficulty level and are thus not that noticeable in the bigger picture.

Agreed. If the player is finding the AI too difficult than that's a good reason to back down on difficulty. I'd prefer to see average players enjoying Noble level than knocking the AI down to the point that we can all play Deity level. If it gets to where Deity cannot be won, I'm fine with that.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Civic modifiers does affect the AI just as much as the player though, but the bonuses and penalties from civics are overshadowed by the bonuses the AI get from the games difficulty level and are thus not that noticeable in the bigger picture.

I understand It's just my poor way of wording a problem.

Agreed. If the player is finding the AI too difficult than that's a good reason to back down on difficulty. I'd prefer to see average players enjoying Noble level than knocking the AI down to the point that we can all play Deity level. If it gets to where Deity cannot be won, I'm fine with that.

I have No problem with that either. What I do have though is the AI racing 2 Eras ahead even with the slowed down start that the Civics now give for the game up to Tribalism and then Sed Life.

On Emperor the game I'm referring to, I have 5 cities now. The only AI I have met has 21. I just got galley's And he running around in Deceres. I still have stone axe and spear. And if it were no for the only horse resource on my small continent I would be overrun by the Barbs and Neanderthals.
A Side step for a moment when you are isolated and there is No Obsidian on your land mass it irks me no end that the Barbs and Neandethal units can have Obsidian straight away and then have regular spearman too. Yeah I know it's based on the leading player's tech. But the unfairness gets to me at times. (Rant over)

As for the throttling back on Gold during the early game what I'm using to do so is working. Just don't know yet How Hard it should work..

Hi Joseph. I am starting a new game soon, and will post my input as requested above, plus game saves at era transition points. A couple of questions on specific set-up options to best help your analysis:
- any preference for specific game speed within the "Long thru Marathon" range?
- would like to run with Complex Traits on (would be my third time), but won't if it complicates your analysis
- any other game customization options, map set-up or BUG option settings that I should specifically use or avoid for consistency with your previous measurements?

Hello SirJohnEh!

Right now any one of the 3 in that ranges would be good. Be warned though if you choose Marathon it will take almost 3 maybe 4 x as long to reach Sed Life now with this New Set of staring Civics. The AI will race by you if you are using any Difficulty of Monarch and above.

Complex traits is No problem. I have 2 test games with it on too. Only I don't have Dev Leaders on in either. Which I assume you will want. And that is fine.

I'm testing with No Tech Diffusion No WFL so that I can see how the base AI handles these changes. (So far they are doing very well with it). I'm also keeping the Combat Options plain jane as I am trying to see how the AI grows and develops without constant warring. Warring will happen though. I just don't need for me the added attention grabbers like SM and Combat Mod options. But you are More than free to use what you want in this regard.

As for Map been using Standard size , low sea levels with 7AI (the default) on either C2C_World or PM3. Earth like but Start Any where. Ben leaving all AI Random not that this really matters.

Will tell you this though If you play Lincoln it's a rough start. I've found Roosevelt and Deganiwida a bit more flexible.

I'm basically keep the Set up Option set and BUG options pretty plain. I have been using 1 City Tile start though for all my games. The Barb cities now expand after a reasonable time. Thr game I was complaining about above on Emperor their Main City is size 6 now and the 2nd one is already size 3. It's been a all out war to keep from getting overrun by the Barbs. I do Not have Neanderthal Cities Option On but there are tons of them running around too. Good thing I Don't have Peace Among NPCs turned On. If I did I would've lost that game already to the combined Barb and Neander assaults. I may have activated the Option Barb World in that game. Need to recheck the Settings to see if I did.

So basically I guess keep the Options simple. And using Rev, I have No idea how it will react any more. Been some work done on it. But I did not want the added Distraction of trying to avoid city revolts.

Can't think of anything else atm. Good to see you Back!

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have No problem with that either. What I do have though is the AI racing 2 Eras ahead even with the slowed down start that the Civics now give for the game up to Tribalism and then Sed Life.

On Emperor the game I'm referring to, I have 5 cities now. The only AI I have met has 21. I just got galley's And he running around in Deceres. I still have stone axe and spear. And if it were no for the only horse resource on my small continent I would be overrun by the Barbs and Neanderthals.

OK. I'll get to experience that after some other adjustments I'm making on my end to a few things. If the AI is THAT lethal, we can always make some adjustments to compensate, but let's not immediately put blame on the latest changes. There could be some other factors at play in why they have become more dangerous. Lots to look into on that.

 

[Toffer90]

I have No problem with that either. What I do have though is the AI racing 2 Eras ahead even with the slowed down start that the Civics now give for the game up to Tribalism and then Sed Life.

On Emperor the game I'm referring to, I have 5 cities now. The only AI I have met has 21. I just got galley's And he running around in Deceres. I still have stone axe and spear. And if it were no for the only horse resource on my small continent I would be overrun by the Barbs and Neanderthals.

If that is indeed the case, and it's the norm, not just the rare game once in a while. Then that would be awesome, and a discussion regarding difficulty modifiers would then be warranted.
I guess I should do some test games of my own soon, test the effects of the latest changes, so my opinion on the matter of game difficulty can be more up to date with the current SVN.

Edit: TB's latest fix (with essential help from Super Jay Mann) to AI expansion probably have a big impact on this front.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If that is indeed the case, and it's the norm, not just the rare game once in a while. Then that would be awesome, and a discussion regarding difficulty modifiers would then be warranted.
I guess I should do some test games of my own soon, test the effects of the latest changes, so my opinion on the matter of game difficulty can be more up to date with the current SVN.

Edit: TB's latest fix (with essential help from Super Jay Mann) to AI expansion probably have a big impact on this front.

The More test games I start on Difficulty levels above Noble (Monarch, Emperor, and Immortal) and play to Sed Life the more this is bearing out to be True. But a set of 5-6 current games Is a very small sample size. Actually even my older Civic test games were showing this trend long before my latest changes to the early early game Civics CapitalCommerceModifiers.

I just hope T-Brd's latest Commit with it's (sounds like) drastic food cuts will be an Eye Opener as well. And not in a Bad sense. But I can see it wrecking older more mature Games if a player Updates to this latest Commit. A Warning may be need somehow to let players know.

But I am concerned about the Upkeep cost formula and which Civics they really affect. As long as the base value is 1 gold and then the city multiplier is used it should be okay. Of course simply making any Civic have Upkeep_None will negate this. And as T-brd stated not every Civic will need to have any Upkeep.