General discussion for civics

I just hope T-Brd's latest Commit with it's (sounds like) drastic food cuts will be an Eye Opener as well. And not in a Bad sense. But I can see it wrecking older more mature Games if a player Updates to this latest Commit. A Warning may be need somehow to let players know.
Here is a series of Screehshots showing the Starvation taking place to reduce pop levels to the New Food parameters. Capital City had 20 pop, 1st screenie, then it proceeds on down each turn until I get a repeatable EoT CTD. Save game of which I have submitted along with MiniDump to Bug and crash thread.
EDIT: The 2nd and 3rd screenshots ( when city pop = 18) are of the same turn but the 1st is with 4 Specialists active and then the 3rd is with all Specialist placed on Sea Food producing tiles to slow down pop loss.
 

Attachments

  • Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
    325.1 KB · Views: 88
  • Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG
    327.5 KB · Views: 73
  • Civ4ScreenShot0035.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0035.JPG
    301.1 KB · Views: 87
  • Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG
    321.9 KB · Views: 116
  • Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG
    322.3 KB · Views: 143
Last edited:
Here is a series of Screehshots showing the Starvation taking place to reduce pop levels to the New Food parameters. Capital City had 20 pop, 1st screenie, then it proceeds on down each turn until I get a repeatable EoT CTD. Save game of which I have submitted along with MiniDump to Bug and crash thread.
EDIT: The 2nd and 3rd screenshots ( when city pop = 18) are of the same turn but the 1st is with 4 Specialists active and then the 3rd is with all Specialist placed on Sea Food producing tiles to slow down pop loss.
I did warn that developed cities in existing games would probably starve a bit. If we feel this is TOO much, I'd be happy to half the extra consumption.

Interesting your screenshots aren't showing the food display bug...
 
I did warn that developed cities in existing games would probably starve a bit. If we feel this is TOO much, I'd be happy to half the extra consumption.

Interesting your screenshots aren't showing the food display bug...
Maybe because I don't use PPIO??? So I'm not sure what that "bug" looks like to be honest.
 
I will start a new game with my current game set up settings and with this last commit and see how long I can play it.
 
I will start a new game with my current game set up settings and with this last commit and see how long I can play it.
I couldn't even make first 100 turns before repeatable crash on Tiny/Normal/Noble.
I reported that bug before StrategyOnly reported it.
 
Last edited:
Probably. I can check StrategyOnly's save without PPIO.

StrategyOnly save still shows this bug without PPIO.
OK. I'll check it out later tonight. The crash is a priority over that of course. There's something similar happening in the GP tooltip and I think it's somehow related.

If we're seeing starvation at pop 20 down to 16 and lower, I think it could be fair to only add .1 per pop consumption past the first... What we're seeing initially suggests this is a more potent factor than I'd imagined at first but I'm still liking how it works in general. I CAN go even lower if necessary but I think this will work.
 
I will start a new game with my current game set up settings and with this last commit and see how long I can play it.
17 turns :p So no serious Mod work today.

So I went outside and resodded a scalped piece of the yard from when my neighbor plowed my drive after the last Big snow. Then pulled paneling up in basement room to find water leak and fill it with patch cement. So a busy day after all. Got up to 74 today! Lovely arm wind from the south. Ground is still soaking wet though.
 
Is it just me or does "Proletariat" come way too early in history?

I have it in the Classical Era whereas in my head it is a 18/19th century idea....
 
Same could be asked about Civic Bourgeois imho as well.

But, I'm not, at this time, going to re-arrange the Civic tree in each category. After initial Civics in each column each succeeding civic is playable in later game circumstances. And some Civic categories have bigger gaps than others for the next level civic too.

My current focus is getting each individual Civic trimmed of unnecessary "fat" in Gold, Research and sometimes Culture and Production.

Just last night in one of my 5 test games I hit Trade Language and realized that the Bonuses it gives in Gold, Research and Culture are too big. In fact that whole Civic Language Column except the 1st 2 Civics ( which I have already adjusted) are OP. Future Commits will be trimming those back.
 
Committed some adjustments to the Language Civics, in particular Trade Speak.
 
Test game feedback on latest adjustments and Civics (up to Sedentary Lifestyle) for a game at Emperor difficulty and Long speed on a Standard C2C_World map, at SVN level at SVN level 10517 with Complex Traits on, Tech Diffusion on (I think this keeps me all the trailing AIs in the game), WFL off, Size Matters on, and the other Combat options off.

I completed Sedentary Lifestyle at turn 472, 9449 BC (a bit on the early side but in line with expectations). Myself and all the AIs were at roughly the same point in Technology progress (all within 4 techs ahead of or behind Sedentary Lifestyle).
- Scoreboard numbers were 220 for the leading AI, 173 for me, and between 159 and 89 for the other 4 AIs I had met.
- The WorldBuilder Team Data display list of Technologies by player showed all 8 players roughly equivalent in technology progress. The leading AI had already researched 4 Classical technologies, and only skipped 6 of the optional Prehistoric techs versus the 11 I skipped. Four other AIs had completed Sedentary Lifestyle (and 1 or 2 techs beyond), and the remaining 2 AIs were close to starting Sedentary Lifestyle (within a couple of techs).
- I completed 88 of the available 99 technologies (the minimum 81 techs on the Fast Path to completing Sedentary Lifestyle, plus 7 optionals).
- I did not get any Free Techs, but did get science bonuses totaling about 130 beakers (this number is dubious due to my sloppy recording). Looking back, I don't think I popped nearly as many Goody Huts or Islands as usual (which would have slowed my technology progress).
- First 22 Techs learned in 191 turns, average 8.7 turns/tech and 99 beakers/turn ( 88 "earned" beakers plus 11% uplift from TD/WFL etc.)
- Next 22 Techs learned in 86 turns, average 3.9 turns/tech and 185 beakers/turn (157 "earned" beakers plus 15% uplift from TD/WFL/etc.)
- Next 22 Techs learned in 101 turns, average 4.6 turns/tech and 291 beakers/turn (287 "earned" beakers plus 1% uplift from TD/WFL/etc.)
- Final 22 Techs learned in 94 turns, average 4.3 turns/tech and 504 beakers/turn (480 "earned" beakers plus 5% uplift from TD/WFL/etc.)

Complex Traits Impact.
- Reached Leadership Level 1 at turn 136:: Took Preeminent I trait for faster growth and impact on the capital city. This appeared to increase beakers per turn at 100% science by about 4, but dragged down my science slider rate to about 75% for the next 50 turns to avoid negative cash flow.
- Reached Leadership Level 2 at turn 250: Took positive Financial I and negative Minimalist I traits for faster technology progress (more gold to route to Science, plus small direct beaker boosts). This appeared to increase beakers per turn at 100% science by about 1, plus giving much more positive cash flow.
- Reached Leadership Level 3 at turn #448. Took Scientific I trait (for its gold and science rate boosts). Not sure how much this increased the beakers per turn (but guessing about 40 beakers per turn), since it happened during a Golden Age when I was learning techs in 2 to 3 turns (meaning significant rounding errors in my calculations based on integer turn numbers).

Attached are my startup-up and Sedentary Lifestyle completion saves, plus a long (and boring) description all my game set-up options and some statistical analysis of the results. I also created a spreadsheet to log technology-level results, but it requires a fair bit of clean-up to be worthwhile viewing. If I clean it up in preparation for my next test (probably same set-up as this except at latest SVN and at but either Immortal level or at Epic speed), I can add it to this posting.
 

Attachments

  • Test1904A C2C Game Observations, Settings and Saved Games.7z
    1.2 MB · Views: 121
Test game feedback on latest adjustments and Civics (up to Sedentary Lifestyle) for a game at Emperor difficulty and Long speed on a Standard C2C_World map, at SVN level at SVN level 10517 with Complex Traits on, Tech Diffusion on (I think this keeps me all the trailing AIs in the game), WFL off, Size Matters on, and the other Combat options off.

I completed Sedentary Lifestyle at turn 472, 9449 BC (a bit on the early side but in line with expectations). Myself and all the AIs were at roughly the same point in Technology progress (all within 4 techs ahead of or behind Sedentary Lifestyle).
- Scoreboard numbers were 220 for the leading AI, 173 for me, and between 159 and 89 for the other 4 AIs I had met.
- The WorldBuilder Team Data display list of Technologies by player showed all 8 players roughly equivalent in technology progress. The leading AI had already researched 4 Classical technologies, and only skipped 6 of the optional Prehistoric techs versus the 11 I skipped. Four other AIs had completed Sedentary Lifestyle (and 1 or 2 techs beyond), and the remaining 2 AIs were close to starting Sedentary Lifestyle (within a couple of techs).
- I completed 88 of the available 99 technologies (the minimum 81 techs on the Fast Path to completing Sedentary Lifestyle, plus 7 optionals).
- I did not get any Free Techs, but did get science bonuses totaling about 130 beakers (this number is dubious due to my sloppy recording). Looking back, I don't think I popped nearly as many Goody Huts or Islands as usual (which would have slowed my technology progress).
- First 22 Techs learned in 191 turns, average 8.7 turns/tech and 99 beakers/turn ( 88 "earned" beakers plus 11% uplift from TD/WFL etc.)
- Next 22 Techs learned in 86 turns, average 3.9 turns/tech and 185 beakers/turn (157 "earned" beakers plus 15% uplift from TD/WFL/etc.)
- Next 22 Techs learned in 101 turns, average 4.6 turns/tech and 291 beakers/turn (287 "earned" beakers plus 1% uplift from TD/WFL/etc.)
- Final 22 Techs learned in 94 turns, average 4.3 turns/tech and 504 beakers/turn (480 "earned" beakers plus 5% uplift from TD/WFL/etc.)

Complex Traits Impact.
- Reached Leadership Level 1 at turn 136:: Took Preeminent I trait for faster growth and impact on the capital city. This appeared to increase beakers per turn at 100% science by about 4, but dragged down my science slider rate to about 75% for the next 50 turns to avoid negative cash flow.
- Reached Leadership Level 2 at turn 250: Took positive Financial I and negative Minimalist I traits for faster technology progress (more gold to route to Science, plus small direct beaker boosts). This appeared to increase beakers per turn at 100% science by about 1, plus giving much more positive cash flow.
- Reached Leadership Level 3 at turn #448. Took Scientific I trait (for its gold and science rate boosts). Not sure how much this increased the beakers per turn (but guessing about 40 beakers per turn), since it happened during a Golden Age when I was learning techs in 2 to 3 turns (meaning significant rounding errors in my calculations based on integer turn numbers).

Attached are my startup-up and Sedentary Lifestyle completion saves, plus a long (and boring) description all my game set-up options and some statistical analysis of the results. I also created a spreadsheet to log technology-level results, but it requires a fair bit of clean-up to be worthwhile viewing. If I clean it up in preparation for my next test (probably same set-up as this except at latest SVN and at but either Immortal level or at Epic speed), I can add it to this posting.
Given the traits you chose and the reasons you chose them, the dating of your achievement sounds about right to me. In fact, everything you mentioned is sounding about right so far.
 
@SirJohnEh, Thank you for the Report. :)
Without going over the report yet I have some basic questions.
Did you feel that the Gold during this test period was still too much? Were you inconvenienced (in terms of Gold) at all during the span of game start up to Tribalism?
How many Cities did you have by Sed Life? Do you know how many cities your neighboring AI(s) had?

Could you keep the Research slider on 100% during game start to tribalism since you had TD ON? Without TD On (or the usage of WFL) in my Test games so far I frequently had to drop the research slider down.
Tech Diffusion on (I think this keeps me all the trailing AIs in the game),
Perhaps.

And as to the New Traits, do you feel they aided your efforts. In other words neutralized the reduction in :gold::science::hammers::food: that have been added in to early Civics and T-brd's overall :food: per pop for growth?

EDIT: will you be Updating the SVN version as you play?
 
Without going over the report yet I have some basic questions.

I did not feel the gold was "too much", but was similar to my previous experience. I did not track the net gold accumulated or spent per turn during this test (but will try to do this next game). I accumulated gold on almost all turns (31 gold on final turn to learn Sedentary Lifestyle) while averaging about 94% "earned" beakers from slider gold allocation to Science to the end of Sedentary Lifestyle, running at 100% about 70% of the turns, and running at 80% or less for about 40 turns in a row (while learning 10 techs). TD accounted for only about 6% of my technology learning (roughly equivalent to dropping the gold usage slider from 100% Science to 95%). Just a guess, but I think the 5 AIs on my continent enjoyed a roughly similar TD boost. This gold rate and positive cash flow is normal compared to my previous games, except I don't normally have streaks that long at reduced science rates. I do tend to quickly delete obsolete units and build gold generating buildings or resources when my cash flow starts getting close to negative. I was not inconvenienced in terms of Gold - for me, keeping an overall positive cash flow is one of the game challenges.

I learned Tribalism at turn 393 (about 11880 BC, after learning 68 other techs - 57 on the Fast Path plus 11 optional Techs). I averaged about 93% gold going to Science, running at 100% about 68% of the turns, and running at 80% or less for about 40 turns in a row. I just realized from your questions that there should have been a early and noticeable ramp-up in my TD science boost (increasing as I met more AIs) but now I think I missed recording it. The first TD bonus I logged was was at turn 154 for 7 beakers (almost a 50% bump to my "earned" beaker rate).

By Sedentary Lifestyle, I had 3 cities. I reached Tribalism at turn 393, built my second city at turn 409, and my third at turn 428. For each new city, I pre-build access roads and basic kick-start units (usually 2 enforcers, 2 healers, 2 story tellers, 2 merchants, 2 food merchants, a couple of defensive military units, and however many unique subdued animals I have). As a game boost, I manage my technology progress so that I can build the Captured Fire National Wonder and get a Golden Age right after founding the third city.

According to WorldBuilder, the 7 AI civilizations had between 1 and 4 cities each (average 2.3) when I reached Sedentary Lifestyle. I had met 5 AIs on our very large "Old World" continent (I think this means we were all eligible for TD bonuses). The largest AI (4 cities) was on its own small and mountainous continent, and the other AI (2 cities) on a medium-sized continent.

As for Complex Traits, I found they were interesting and challenging and generally balanced by the other Civics and growth rate changes. I did not notice any significant change to overall :gold::science::hammers::food: or to game technology progress as I was playing , although thinking about it now I wonder if the early game was slower until getting my first Trait at turn 136, and the late game faster for the last 48 turns after taking the Scientific I trait at turn 448 ( giving me 3 positive Traits and only 1 negative Trait, versus without Complex Traits where my usual leader Elizabeth has 1 highly positive trait, 1 so-so positive trait, and 1 not-so-bad negative trait throughout the whole game).

I plan to start a new game in the next day or two, updating to the latest SVN level and keeping the same options except for switching to either Epic game speed (my preference) or to Immortal Difficulty. I saved the starting map from this game using WorldBuilder, and tested loading as a Scenario to allow measuring technology progress at a different game speed or difficulty level on the same map. I think this avoids significant measurement differences due to running on a different map with different starting locations, random map resource placement, and AI opponent styles. I think this will give a more accurate comparison specific to game speed selection or difficulty level selection (although there will still be differences due to SVN changes (can be avoided if necessary but does not make measurements up-to-date), and to game play differences to take advantage of different random events. Before I start this, I would appreciate feedback on the feasibility and value of this approach, and any related advice, suggestions or comments.
 
For the SVN use at least 10528. So yeah starting with the latest is usually best. T-brd has also fixed 2 Divide by 0 bugs since 10517.

Epic and Immortal is also fine. (I have games on Noble, Monarch, Emperor, and Immortal.)

Using same map is not a problem for me as I'm more interested in When Civics come into play. In any game you will have 6 Civic changes available before Tribalism. At Tribalism you have 3 Choices available. By the time you get to Agriculture you will have had 13 Civic choices available. As I map the Civic entry points it helps me see what values have been introduced and manipulated in the :gold::hammers::food::culture: modifiers as well as :commerce::health::yuck::espionage:.
 
Civic Rebalancing is at a stand still till I can evaluate the impacts of the latest SVN changes to :science:and :gold:. Basically I have to start all over again.
 
Last edited:
It would seem that while messing around with Graphical Paging and Viewports I have broken my saves (Turning them Off and then back on). I'm getting incompatible save pop ups now. So my most advanced games are "broken atm". This means I have to start a whole new series of Civic Test games for different Handicaps and GSs. UGH! :cry::sad::(
 
Top Bottom