General discussion for civics

[Toffer90]

@Toffer90 I guess barbarians can have strong nerf

Probably, first thing we should do is give later prereq techs for them to start spawning on than the tech that enables them for a regular player.
The spawn prereq tech means: "when the first player gets this tech, start spawning this here unit".
It's not cool for any players lagging a bit behind tech leader to have to deal with stronger units than can be trained by said player all the time.

Would you be willing to review this tech prereq for all barb spawn? I think the neanderthal spawn should also have a little delay like that.

 

[raxo2222]

Probably, first thing we should do is give later prereq techs for them to start spawning on than the tech that enables them for a regular player.
The spawn prereq tech means: "when the first player gets this tech, start spawning this here unit".
It's not cool for any players lagging a bit behind tech leader to have to deal with stronger units than can be trained by said player all the time.

Would you be willing to review this tech prereq for all barb spawn? I think the neanderthal spawn should also have a little delay like that.

What GlobalTurns in spawn infos do?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Probably, first thing we should do is give later prereq techs for them to start spawning on than the tech that enables them for a regular player.
The spawn prereq tech means: "when the first player gets this tech, start spawning this here unit".
It's not cool for any players lagging a bit behind tech leader to have to deal with stronger units than can be trained by said player all the time.

Would you be willing to review this tech prereq for all barb spawn? I think the neanderthal spawn should also have a little delay like that.

Could turn up the number on the spawn chances too (high is lower chance). Just a notch. Small changes with this thing can have big impacts.

 

[Zanden]

I've been noticing the same issue with barbarians. Had a stack of 70 neanderthal brutes (3 strength) show up on my borders around turn 250 or so, fought them off, then had a stack of 60 neanderthal warriors (6 strength each) show up a few turns later while still in mid-prehistoric era.
I may have had raging barbarians on, but it's a bit excessive even so. AI wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Toffer90 I guess barbarians can have strong nerf

I don't mind a some strong barb cities. But they are so Prolific in cities and Units that If a player can not get Obsidian asap, or Neanderthal, then a Civ with regular stone Mil units will get overwhelmed. Maybe not totally destroyed but they can't grow as all their production efforts have to be in Mil Unit and city defense.

@raxxo2222,
Now that save game I posted for you is at the point where I have enough production from enough cities to start killing off the barbs in my area. And the Most effective weapon against a barb city is Out Culturing them from more than 1 side. Your city =X, Barb city = 0, then X0X.
Or 0X
X--X etc. You still need massive stacks of Mil units to take a well defended Barb city.

They do have one weakness and that is when they do attack, with a stack, IF you are well defended and promoted you can usually take out twice what you lose. So keep your cities well defended with promoted units that suit that city and city terrain.

 

[raxo2222]

@Toffer90 I noticed barbarian spawning disconnect when gunpowder is available

Also you forgot about module spawn infos, fixed that on github.

 

[Toffer90]

Could turn up the number on the spawn chances too (high is lower chance). Just a notch. Small changes with this thing can have big impacts.

I just reduced spawn frequency 20 hours ago, should see how that plays out first I think.
Changelog Link

 

[JosEPh_II]

Could turn up the number on the spawn chances too (high is lower chance). Just a notch. Small changes with this thing can have big impacts.

Yes tweaking a little at a time will help find the right balance and challenge.

Toffer's suggestion is also needed.

 

[Toffer90]

What GlobalTurns in spawn infos do?

There's actually a comment about it I added a long time ago in the spawn xml, you should probably move that up to the initial file comment there.

<!--
iGlobalTurns translated to iTurns:
iTurns = (iGlobalTurns / 100) * iValidPlots
iValidPlots = Number of Valid spawn plots on entire map
-->

Hmm, that comment may not make things all that much clearer...

 

[JosEPh_II]

I just reduced spawn frequency 20 hours ago, should see how that plays out first I think.
Changelog Link

Reduced animal and barb spawns based on MToS values.

Not sure the animals needed this reduction. Barb Yes.

 

[Toffer90]

Thing about the iGlobalTurns tag is that it will self adjust based on how many valid plots on the map exist for that particular spawn, so if there's a lot of valid plots more units won't spawn than if there were only 1 valid plot available on the map.

While iTurn will not self regulate this way, meaning the more valid plots there are the more this unit will spawn on the map per e.g. 100 turns.

If iTurns and iGlobalTurns are used together the global rate will only be able to increase the spawn frequency per valid plot defined by iTurn.
So I would use iGlobal alone and have iTurn at 0 which is the tag default, whenever iGlobal is actually used. Or perhaps have iTurn at a much bigger number than iGlobalTurns to define the minimum spawn rate that can only be increased by the iGlobal value being much lower. Using them togheter is complicated and you would have to understand their combined math to set those values efficiently is what I'm saying.

 

[raxo2222]

@Toffer90 you also used trails instead of tracking - some spawns are backward tech wise

 

[Toffer90]

@Toffer90 you also used trails instead of tracking - some spawns are backward tech wise

Did I change tech prereqs in that update? that must have been a wild edit

Edit: No, you're messing with me, I didn't change any tech prereqs there.

 

[raxo2222]

Did I change tech prereqs in that update? that must have been a wild edit

Edit: No, you're messing with me, I didn't change any tech prereqs there.

Then who messed it up?

Also there are some unit upgrades unlocked on same column - up to two columns later after unit.

 

[raxo2222]

I made list of all barbarian/neanderthal spawns, listed their unlock and obsolete techs and xgrid locations.

 

[Toffer90]

Then who messed it up?

Don't know, I've never done much xml work related to techs in C2C,
I think Kation changed up when most prehistoric units were unlocked when he reworked the prehistoric tech tree, maybe he didn't change the spawn file when doing that.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thing about the iGlobalTurns tag is that it will self adjust based on how many valid plots on the map exist for that particular spawn, so if there's a lot of valid plots more units won't spawn than if there were only 1 valid plot available on the map.

While iTurn will not self regulate this way, meaning the more valid plots there are the more this unit will spawn on the map per e.g. 100 turns.

If iTurns and iGlobalTurns are used together the global rate will only be able to increase the spawn frequency per valid plot defined by iTurn.
So I would use iGlobal alone and have iTurn at 0 which is the tag default, whenever iGlobal is actually used. Or perhaps have iTurn at a much bigger number than iGlobalTurns to define the minimum spawn rate that can only be increased by the iGlobal value being much lower. Using them together is complicated and you would have to understand their combined math to set those values efficiently is what I'm saying.

Interesting stuff there Toffer.

Started Another new game on Noble, Normal with latest SVN this morning. Barbs are barely noticeable. 1 city on the continent I share with Japan. The reductions made a big impact. Now the barbs are just a minor hinderance And Noble is back to being easy peasy again. I'll have no trouble getting to Med Era to check the Civics activated in it with this game.

 

[VCrakeV]

There seems to be a general philosophy among the community, including myself, which is that civics should remain relevant even after newer ones are unlocked. However, there are many cases of "strict upgrades" (especially with the beginning civics to the next ones). It is also almost strictly better to upgrade your government civic if it decreases the unhappiness from too many cities.

I think the best way to handle this is to introduce bonuses to older civics from unlocking techs, and more civic interaction (e.g a boost in happiness and/or decrease in unhappiness from anarchism with class struggle, and culture/science boosts with social technology [e.g Internet]).

Thoughts?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Most Civics except the initial Default game starts can be used at any time after discovery. But the earliest will carry penalties by not being as over encompassing as later civics. This is Not something I have glossed over. And why the Re-balancing of Civics as a whole is taking a longer time than anticipated.

I'm atm happy with the way the Civics play out through the Classical Era. Yes there are some that could get a small tweak or 2 but not very many.

The re-arrangement of the Tech tree last year by KaTiON also changed the entry points of the Civics thru the 1st 3 Eras as well. And forced some changes because of When in the game progress the Civic could be changed.

I'm the 4th Modder/player to attempt to re balance our Civics as a whole. Every Modder before me except the Mod Author StrategyOnly, has left the Mod before they ever finished their project. Let that sink in for a minute. This is Not a easy nor willy nilly project. And as such the one doing it has to have a thick skin attitude and a willingness to adhere to their plan. Not that valid suggestion are ignored. But rather noted and weighed during Live in game testing. I do not make changes with out several games played that incorporate those changes. And then evaluated if they will be included or not.

This Civic overhaul is not a quick fix. Nor can it really be done as one. It's gonna take time. Just look at the last year with the various reaction to what was done just in the Preh Era. Reactions have ranged from "Outrage" to "hey that's some really needed changes to early game play problems". I will not please everyone. I will try my best to make this mod better with a sustained challenge in this particular area.

 

[JosEPh_II]

One more thing, every time there is a necessary for the mod's overall improvement , game save breaking version I do have to start my test games over. Currently I have 3 test games started after SVN 11153. One is in early Preh era , 2nd has just reached Ancient era, and the 3rd is about 15 techs from Classical era. Hopefully I will be able to get all 3 into the Med Era before any more save breaking updates are put out, hopefully.

And while I was "sick" in later December and January I did not play much C2C. It was a much needed break in the long run to re-energize my efforts. So there was that.