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General discussion for civics.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by raxo2222, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Well there would be only pair of autobuildings:
    They would require palace to function, effectively locking them in capital.
    Education powered Competence level would be at same level in every city, but only in Capital it could actually do something.
    Competence autobuildings would boost/dampen yields of civics.

    Same with crime powered transparency - autobuildings would be only in capital, as they would require palace.
    Transparency would affect happines/unhappines and health/unhealth coming from civics.

    Health/happines from civics is easily swamped by resource/building health/happines modifiers anyway - in fact it wouldn't make much difference, if civics didn't have health/happiness bonus past prehistoric era.
     
  2. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    You know, i approve the idea of actually simulating government and society civics based on real life politics, mostly because i actually have fun playing as a communist dictator.

    Even then, i do believe that while the mod doesn't exactly simulate what IRL happens, i did amused myself noticing my GPT going to the negatives after i adopted subsized agriculture, democracy, egalitarian and subsized health civic. (It went from +4500 to -3000).
     
  3. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    I do have some political opinions and i do disapprove the ideas from the Dems and the US Liberals, but when we're talking about games and mods i really don't care. As long as it adds some fun, i approve the idea (which i do, since a more in depth politics in the mod is one of the things that i look very forward, alongside with a more complex culture system and the space colonization)
     
  4. cammcken

    cammcken Warlord

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    Vanilla Civ4 had a very optimistic view of humanity. The game truly believed there could be benevolent dictators, police-sates with free speech, democracies holding state property. It didn't favor any. You are modding off of the Vanilla, however, so you can decide otherwise, but maybe that precedent is a good unifier.

    Remember, even the Tribalism, Chiefdom, etc. civics can be advantageous for a small society that doesn't need higher levels of organization. Civ goes contrary to real life by assuming societies develop linearly and always "forward". In real life, there are many examples of societies switching back and forth between foraging, pastoralism, semi-sedentary and sedentary lifestyles depending on the economic and political situation. I'm not suggesting we change that (it would be game-breaking), but just to remind that there's a time and place when even Chiefdom is the best choice.
     
  5. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Can government be influenced by general education and crime levels of cities weighted by their population?
    Same civic set would have different effect if cities would have low crime and high education levels and viceversa.
    Some civics would have higher or lower amount of centralization.
    For example Democracy is less centralized than Totalitarianism.

    Or would be that too hard to implement for example too hard to balance?
    It seems like this layer would be highest placed - everything else would have to be properly balanced before implementing this.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  6. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    Not necessarily. France is very centralized, and was even more so before the 1990s. The GDR on the other hand had rather strong local powers - it just meant that the ruling party had to be in charge there as well. And at least officially, the USSR was a federation, with its largest member state (RSFSR) a federation as well - of course, the de facto powers at the state level were highly suppressed.
     
  7. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I think terms like Liberty vs. Absolutionism and Decentralization vs. Centralization are better generic terms than the examples given in previous posts.
     
  8. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    And when it comes to economic models Individual vs. Communal makes sense.
     
  9. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Well C2C politics have more dimensions than string theory. :mischief:

    Government - The state.
    Rule - Administrative organization.
    Power - Governmental organization.
    Society - How people are organized.
    Economy - How business is organized.
    Military - How warfare is done.
    Religion - Relation of state and religion.
    Welfare - Helping of those in need.
    Garbage - How empire deals with trash.
    Immigration - Law for migration.
    Education - System of schooling.
    Language - System of communication.
    Agriculture - Laws for primary sector.
    Currency - Monetary system.
    Labor - Laws for employment.

    How close I'm to definitions of categories?

    Edit: It seems like there are unused categories in Civics_CIV4GameText.xml
    Line 13314: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_FUTURE</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13377: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_HEALTHCARE</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13455: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_LEGAL</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13503: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_POLITICS</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13602: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_VALUES</Tag> UNUSED

    It seems like there are 3 major groups.
    Primary: Government, Rule, Power, Military, Religion - Politics
    Secondary: Society, Economy, Welfare, Currency, Labor - Socioeconomics.
    Tetritary: Garbage, Immigration, Language, Education, Agriculture - Miscellaneous.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  10. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I think your wrong with Rule. Rule is more like territorial organization. Also your definition of Power seems to be off. Power is more like what type of political and military means your government is using to maintain it's legitimacy. Other than that everything else seems pretty accurate.
     
  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    So Rule would be Administrative organization and Power would be Executive branch?
     
  12. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

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    The entire Garbage category looks wrong to me. Why are those exclusive of each other? And isn't it mostly just a ladder you upgrade along the way? It's not using the civic subsystem enough to justify the screen width.
    I am even more confused by Language. This one is nothing but an upgrade ladder - it certainly isn't about deciding what language your society knows. ... it's more like the extent to which you accommodate to foreigners. Xenoprotocol or something.

    Elsewise civics are the funnest thing about C2C :lol:
     
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  13. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Administrative organization would be correct for Rule yes. However the term executive branch is irrelevant here as the Power civics are not entirely representing the authority of a single chief executive. Some like Patriarchy, Matriarchy, Junta, and Single Party are groups of people. Separation of Powers represents a system of governance consisting of all three branches (not just an executive one). While Legislature seems to be just a legislative branch (executive excluded). Plutocracy is basically just a bunch of rich guys conspiring together. And Protocol/Computation is robot overlords. So that leaves Strongman, Sovereignty, and Divine Right as the only ones that seem to be referring to a single person.
     
  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    For garbage it would be main method of utilizing trash.
    As for language pretty much that.
     
  15. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Changed Rule description to Administrative organization.
    Then what would be Power category?
    Authority organization?
    Governmental hierarchy?
     
  16. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I would do either Governmental Hierarchy or Governmental Organization.
     
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  17. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Okay, changed Power description to Governmental organization.

    Government description would be then Political/State organization, as Legislature branch would suggest choice for other branches too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  18. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I'd simply call it The State as all the civics within Government seem to be describing persons and entities that are declaring themselves to be the actual state itself. An example would be a constitutional monarchy where The State = Monarchy and Government Organization = Legislature (aka the parliament). In such a system the actual state itself is considered to be the monarch with the duties of state forfeited to the head of state (aka the prime minister (who is also considered the head of parliament) and the parliament. An absolute Monarchy would be The State = Monarchy and Government Organization = Sovereignty or Divine Right. As the monarch is still the actual state but instead of forfeiting his rights he rules directly himself either through justification stemming from either his bloodline or as a divine representative of some kind of divinity. A second example would be America for instance where The State = Democracy (technically a democratic republic) and Government Organization = Separation of Powers (the three branches of American government). In America no person is the actual state instead the Constitution is. The president is considered to be the head of state who's powers are derived by what the Constitution (aka the state) grants him. Same goes for the Legislative branch and the Judicial branch. They only have the powers described within the Constitution so that they can perform the duties of state as the Constitution is a document and not a person. Therefore the Constitution is the Democracy and therefore the State. The Constitution also contains the necessary steps to those who are granted by it with the authority of the duties of state must take in order to change (amend) it in order to alter the structure of the state itself.
     
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  19. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Changed government description to State.

    @Thunderbrd
    I found some unused remains in Civics_CIV4GameText.xml
    Line 13314: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_FUTURE</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13377: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_HEALTHCARE</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13455: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_LEGAL</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13503: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_POLITICS</Tag> UNUSED
    Line 13602: <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_VALUES</Tag> UNUSED

    This mod has a lot of fossils :p
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Yep. Lots of works in progress and abandoned projects and leftovers from restructures. It's an evolving beast.
     
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