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General discussion for civics.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by raxo2222, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Can't be category icons moved slightly upwards? There is empty space on top of bar.
    Also entire bar could be slightly extended to fit category icons and 5 rows of civic icons.
     
  2. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    @Thunderbrd this suggestion is fast and easy:
    Can we reorder civic categories to like this?

    I sorted categories like this:
    Primary: Government, Rule, Power, Military, Religion - Politics
    Secondary: Society, Economy, Welfare, Currency, Labor - Socioeconomics.
    Tetritary: Garbage, Immigration, Language, Education, Agriculture - Miscellaneous.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Not my realm. Maybe Joseph or Toffer would be more inclined to do something with this suggestion.
     
    raxo2222 likes this.
  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    @Toffer90 what about sorting civics to like this:
    Spoiler Civic Categories :

    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_RULE</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_RULE</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_POWER</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_POWER</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_MILITARY</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_MILITARY</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_RELIGION</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_RELIGION</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_SOCIETY</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_SOCIETY</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_WELFARE</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_WELFARE</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_CURRENCY</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_CURRENCY</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_LABOR</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_LABOR</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_EDUCATION</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_EDUCATION</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_LANGUAGE</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_LANGUAGE</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_GARBAGE</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_GARBAGE</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_IMMIGRATION</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_IMMIGRATION</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>
    <CivicOptionInfo>
    <Type>CIVICOPTION_AGICULTURE</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_AGICULTURE</Description>
    </CivicOptionInfo>

    They seem to form naturally 3 major categories.
    CIV4CivicOptionInfos is in GameInfo.
    There was also random unused TraitNoUpkeep tag here.

    By the way Grid and E-Education just shouldn't belong in Modern era - Information era would be more realistic for them.
    Communication Networks sounds like much better unlock tech for these civics.
    Grid could be unlocked by Fiber Optics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  5. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Not my realm either.
    Sure you can @tmv .
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  6. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    @JosEPh_II then.
    Looks like 15 civic categories form 3 major groups.
    Primary: Government, Rule, Power, Military, Religion - Politics
    Secondary: Society, Economy, Welfare, Currency, Labor - Socioeconomics.
    Tetritary: Language, Education, Garbage, Immigration, Agriculture - Miscellaneous.
    Code:
    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <!-- edited with XMLSPY v2004 rel. 2 U (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Jesse Smith (Firaxis Games) -->
    <!-- Sid Meier's Civilization 4 -->
    <!-- Copyright Firaxis Games 2005 -->
    <!-- -->
    <!-- Civic Option -->
    <Civ4CivicOptionInfos xmlns="x-schema:C2C_CIV4GameInfoSchema.xml">
        <CivicOptionInfos>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_RULE</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_RULE</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_POWER</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_POWER</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_MILITARY</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_MILITARY</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_RELIGION</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_RELIGION</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>       
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_SOCIETY</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_SOCIETY</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_WELFARE</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_WELFARE</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_CURRENCY</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_CURRENCY</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_LABOR</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_LABOR</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_EDUCATION</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_EDUCATION</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_LANGUAGE</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_LANGUAGE</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_GARBAGE</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_GARBAGE</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_IMMIGRATION</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_IMMIGRATION</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
            <CivicOptionInfo>
                <Type>CIVICOPTION_AGICULTURE</Type>
                <Description>TXT_KEY_CIVICOPTION_AGICULTURE</Description>
            </CivicOptionInfo>
        </CivicOptionInfos>
    </Civ4CivicOptionInfos>
    

    Following civics needs internet to be ubiquitous to be actually working.
    TECH_COMPUTER_NETWORKS is unlocked at X82
    Grid would be unlocked earlier as it is state doing things.
    E-Education civic would suggest primary form of education is done trough internet.
    CIVIC_GRID would be unlocked by TECH_FIBER_OPTICS - X87
    CIVIC_E_EDUCATION would be unlocked by TECH_COMMUNICATION_NETWORKS - X88

    E-education can be moved even further in time:
    TECH_MMO (Online Community, same place as wikipedia or social networks) - X93.
    TECH_VIRTUALSOCIETY - X97, right behind Nanotech Lifestyle.
    Basically it depends on e-education needing more or less ubiquitous computer/internet access.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  7. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Pity you had not put that in a code block so it could just be copied and pasted with indentation. Unless the modder has a package that can auto indent that is, like I do.

    I can update the order no problems but not the Civics as it is not my area either. I would not do it before the next release though, even if it is mostly cosmetic.
     
  8. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I copied entire file into code block now.

    And why you wouldn't do that before release?
    Someone did much deeper changes before release :lol::mischief:
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Because we are so close to release we don't to tempt fate.
     
  10. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Combo of Hydro/Mr Azure's late game Civics and pepper2000's Civics.

    I try to balance the Civics that were made by CivPlaye8 and then redone by StrategyOnly as he saw fit. StrategyOnly likes complex Civics. I only change a Civic after much game play and finding that it has an "odd" bit in it. Or was originally made when we did not have the New conditions that all the New Era now present. Or when the underlying mechanics get "radical new" changes.

    And I ain't changin' 'nuthin' right now neither! :p
     
  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I'm talking from realism perspective - what are real world examples of state run Grid or E-Education pre 1990 year?
    Because both of them are unlocked in Modern era - period, that runs from 1900 (relativity, quantum physics, flight) to 1990 year (before internet truly took off).
    It seems like better place was created much later after they were added.
    Information era - 1990-2050 year tech level is much better place for them.

    E-Education wouldn't work at all in Modern era - computers and internet weren't as ubiquitous back before 1990's.
    Only those two civics are in weird place, others are about right.
    I also added civic list to this post.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes I too feel that Now there are Civics in different categories that need re-order in their ranking/position. But that is for a later time to do. And in fact I feel some are not even needed, especially the late late era ones. Sorry pepper. :(
     
  13. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Late era civics have kinda placeholder values and effects though.
    @pepper2000 should be late civics (Information era and beyond) be more powerful than civics from earlier eras?
    Computers are faster at processing things than human :p

    I don't like Off-Planet Dumping garbage civic (this one isn't Pepper civic).
    It is waste of money, energy and matter.
    When this civic stops being waste of money and energy (low cost of launching trash into space and fusion reactors powering whole civilization) it will be obsoleted by nanotech recycling on steroids.
    What can't be reclaimed now may be reclaimable later.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  14. pepper2000

    pepper2000 King

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    Generally yes, though it's also good to have tradeoffs and not have the later ones be unambiguously better than the early ones. Around the time I added mine in, there were major redesigns to the rest of the civics. Since then I've kept out of civics, aside from moving Off-Planet Dumping a bit later. I agree that E-Education and Grid should come later. Maybe Grid should be moved all the way to the Mass Surveillance tech.

    However, since Civics is an area where others are already working and one that has charged opinions, I will stay out of working on it directly.
     
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  15. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Hmm Joseph said, that latest (maybe Galactic+ eras?) ones aren't even needed as if they were too weak or something.
    Syncretism is all around worse than Secularism (religious civics) for example.

    Maybe for last civics add unlimited specialists of each type for each civic?
    That is religion last civics has unlimited prophets, education last civic- scientists, and so on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't see how you can work on the future stuff without making future civics a part of that design plan.
     
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  17. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Yeah, for now Joseph can take care of all civics to Modern era and Pepper can take care of all civics from Modern era or something like that.
    Others won't get too fast to Information era and later civics.
     
  18. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    When it comes to future civics it helps to remember that as of now the game doesn't really have much future gameplay so to say. And it probably won't until multimaps are finally created. Sure you can have future "next war" scenario type wars on Earth right now, but only Earth. Space maps do exist but are crowded and with limited space (plus the terrain art for space terrain looks ugly). The AI is also dumb as marbles and struggles to settle it. Plus usually by the time you would be able to go to space it would be so late in the game that the player has likely eliminated all of their rivals on Earth. So if you want to add late game competition and not make the space game boring alien civs will have to be added (unless you play with revolutions). Right now it helps to look at the future civics currently in the game and see their descriptions' as "multimaps coming soon!".
     
  19. tmv

    tmv Emperor

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    I mostly agree, but there is a wonder that opens all religious civics very early (Ancient or Classical IIRC) - that should perhaps be limited.
     
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  20. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Or have this ability removed.
     

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