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General Leader Discussion

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    Ok I've noticed that not a lot happends in this subforum so I'm going to try and kickstart it in the easiest way possible!
    I'm going to list all the leaders in the game and give you my general idea on what's good, what's bad and what's ugly. Also a suggested solution.
    The general idea would be that 'Good' is powerful, 'Bad' is weak and ugly is just poor/boring mechanics. I'll probably find some other point I'll have to bring up halfway into this and this whole Clint Eastwood thing will fail :D anyways this will take a lot of work so I'm going to be real pissed off if people don't respond(and probably if people respond aswell) so just keep that in mind :D


    American
    Good: Both the UU and the UB are really solid.
    Bad: The UA is pretty mediocre/weak.
    Ugly: The UA can't carry the earlygame until you get the UU/UB.
    Solution: Add something to the UA//Replace it to make earlygame less boring

    Arabian
    Good: The UB is decent.
    Bad: The UA and the UU
    Ugly: The UB and the UU lost a lot of power from vanilla, something that the UA doesn't make up for.
    Solution: Replace the UA, make the UU fill a role other than being a mounted bowman that can take a hit.

    Assyrian
    Good: The UB
    Bad: -
    Ugly: -
    Discussion: I just don't play Assyria enough to make valid judgementcalls, but everything about the civ seems solid enough. Maybe the UA could use an additional effect since it is rather situational but I don't really know.

    Austrian
    Good: UU/UB/UA
    Bad: -
    Ugly: Boring/slow earlygame because of startingbias and the fact that all the uniques are later midgame focused.
    Solution: Honestly no idea.

    Aztec
    Good: UB
    Bad: UA
    Ugly: Probably the civ with the harshest requirements for settling, if you don't settle next to freshwater, your city is useless.
    Solution: Raise the UA numbers a small bit and (if possible) make the culture from kills go to your city with the least culture (or split on all if that isn't possible) for borderexpansion.
    Don't fix the problem, the cityplacement issue is completely fine as long as the UA is adjusted to make up for you placing your cities in worse locations.

    Babylonian
    Good: -
    Bad: -
    Ugly: The UB is boring and doesn't add enough. The UU is boring and doesn't have any unique promotions to carry on when upgraded. The academy nerfs made the UA pretty boring/weak.
    Solution: Give the UU some fun promotion that carries on when upgraded.
    Give the UB some fun effect that makes it more than just a slighly better wall, maybe a scientistslot or something.
    UA shift the power of the UA, lower the bonus to great scientist generation but make the great scientists stronger, give a bonus to academies and a bonus when bulbing.

    Brazilian
    Good: The UI (The UA)
    Bad: The UU
    Ugly: The shift in culture gameplay (nerfs to hotels/airports) have made the UI pretty weak for tourism VC (But from what I've gathered it still looks like a really strong UI). The UU is just straight up boring, it has one of the minuteman's three promotions. UA suffers from being extremely weird in the current game. You can get close to infinite goldenages later on (I got up to 240 turns one game I played, and that was 240 turns remaining, no clue how long I had been in a golden age by that point). That leads to the UA being awful early on and really strong later on.
    Solution: The UU is the absolute latest UU in the game if you count techs needed to unlock it requiring like 10 techs more than the Panzer (realisticly it would be more like 2 or 3 because most techs are earlygame ones that the panzer can skip). It really needs more power and more uniqueness to make up for being that lategame.

    Byzantine
    Good: UB/UA
    Bad: -
    Ugly/Discussion: The UB comes to late to help you guarantee your UA to actually work. UA is dependant on you actually getting a religion. The UU is actually really strong, but I am hesitant to put it in the 'Good' box mostly because its effects doesn't carry over at all and I think UUs like that are just boring.
    Solution: Lower the power of the UU somewhat and give it a promotion that carries over when upgraded. Maybe add a +1faith/turn to the capital, but I'm not sure. Removing the pietytree from ancient era would completely wreck Byzantium.

    Carthaginian
    Good: UB/UA
    Bad: UU
    Ugly: The UA might be too powerful atm, not 100% sure but it just gives you too many things. The UU is still pretty damn boring.
    Solution: Add something to the UU to make it more interesting, extra sight/movespeed, ability to enter oceantiles, ability to heal outside friendly territory, something like that. Maybe remove mountaincrossing from the UA.

    Celtic
    Good: -
    Bad: UU
    Ugly/Discussion: I don't like the fact that their UA just goes obsolete unless you decide to not improve tiles within your territory. I don't like the great musician points on the UB, it doesn't make much sense to get 2 random points per turn on any city outside of your capital, also great musicians are pretty damn weak at the moment unless you're going for tourism victory(and if you are, then you probably don't want to get them earlygame either :D) The UU just feels weak to me, no real idea why.
    Solution: Make the UA count improved foresttiles aswell, or add some additional effect to it. Change the UB back to how it used to be or to something else. Give some love to the UU, CEP gave it double movement in hills, and that made sense to me, but anything else would probably work aswell.

    Chinese
    Good: -
    Bad: Uniques
    Ugly/discussion: Here is the deal, I was actually going to write the UB as 'Good' until i checked the civpedia while writing this and realized it had been nerfed, now I don't like it at all. The UU doesn't need as low of a ranged combatstrength as it has tbh. The UA isn't bad but it feels like it kinda forces you into a specific role.
    Solution: Buff the UB, as it is the only part of China that isn't entirely warfocused. Raise the RCS of the UU and change the promotion from attack twice to the standard logistics(no idea why they have different names honestly) and nerf logistics if any reduced power is required.
    Add something interesting to the UA, maybe a Yieldbonus on citadels or something like that.

    Danish
    Good: -
    Bad: -
    Ugly: Don't get me wrong, I love all the Danish uniques. It is just extremely hard to point one out as being really strong, maybe the UA but it by itself doesn't win games. There are a few things I would change however.
    Solution: I would make the extra movementpoint on the Berserker carry over when upgraded. I would also give him the embarked defense promotion making you able to attack from sea with them without straight up dying to a cityattack (since AI now actually target embarked units). These buffs would be to counteract the fact that you can't upgrade your warriors all the way to berserkers anymore, something that all swordsmen/longswordsmen suffers from.
    I would move the Jelling stones earlier in the techtree, maybe to writing or optics, but that's just a personal thing, the NW by itself is solid but it just feels worse than the other unique NW-replacement. I just don't know.

    Dutch
    Good: UI
    Bad: UI
    Ugly: The Dutch suffers from not having any idea what they want to do, or how to do it. They have a Naval UU but they don't have ocean startingbias so that one may end up being useless if they start in the middle of a continent. They have a UI that goes from being completely worthless to completely off the hook overpowered depending on your startinglocation. They have a UA that starts of solid enough and turns completely useless by the renaissance era. All in all this civ feels like Spain MK2, completely RNGdependant to actually get anything done. (and RNG hates me so I'm biased :D)
    Solution: Rework polders into a coastal only improved farm. Give Dutch ocean startingbias. Rework the UA or make it scale somehow. (Don't get me wrong the UA is still a lot better than the BnW one but a lot weaker than the GnK one)

    Egyptian
    Good: ?
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: Ehm, where do I start? The UU have nothing that carries over when upgraded leading to the interesting situation where it is actually better not to upgrade it. Yes sure you lose out on 2 RCS but you gain 1 movespeed and you save one horse. The UB I still have no actual idea what it does because it isn't written in the civpedia :D from the looks of it it is a temple without maintenance but which gives people extra gold when they conquer you. The UA have that interesting effect of actually being useless at both the easiest and the hardest difficulty settings, and instead being useful somewhere in the middle. Explanation would be that you don't have any problems grabbing all the wonders in the game at settler, and you don't stand a chance to get any of them on deity. Somewhere in the middle it makes you get a few wonder that you would normally have missed, and that is quite solid, but I'm honestly not sure this is enough. The extra production per city helps.
    Solution: Add some promotions to the UU to make it more viable to upgrade. Make the UB do something, or if it does something please add it to the civpedia :D. I have no idea what to do with the UA, it is iconic and with the removal of the tradition policy it is unique. Maybe make it give you some yieldbonuses on NWs?

    English
    Good: UU
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: The combination of the UU and the UA makes England close to unstoppable or atleast that was how it was before the cruiser was added :D. The UU suffers from the exact same thing that the Egyptian UU suffered from, it got plenty of power but all of it is stuck on the unit, no promotions at all. This used to mean that England could crush anyone and dominate the naval game until battleships showed up almost three eras later. I still don't like the UB giving less production than the building it replaces. I also think the UB is too weak for how late into the game it actually shows up, but after playing a few coalstarved games I can instead say that it completely depends on maptype. The UA is really solid if you're playing a watermap, the extra spies are nice aswell but they don't really make up for Englands general weakness on non-water maps.
    Solution: Shift power on the UU from raw strength to promotions. Buff the UB, have it make up for Englands lack of power on landbased maps.

    Ethiopian
    Good: -
    Bad: UU, UA
    Ugly: I'm going to say it right here so people don't get the wrong idea, the UB is not bad. But I honestly don't like it, I don't like any monument-replacements mostly because by their default role you're going to build them as a first building in every city anyways which means they can't have any real power.
    The UU tries really hard to be defensive in a game where you can only be defensive if you're ahead.
    The UA used to be all about defense aswell but in the last few patches it did a complete 180 and is now all about bullying your weak neighbors into giving you a free golden age. All in all the UA makes no sense to me at all.
    Discussion: Defensive focus would be nice if you had something to fall back on, that puts you ahead of others. But Ethiopia just doesn't have that.
    Solution: Add plenty of power to either the UB or the UA or both to make the defensive bonuses and focus actually worth it.

    French
    Good: UI
    Bad: -
    Discussion I just don't know how many times poor Napoleon have had to 180 his playstyle. It used to be all about conquering as many random puppets as possible and wait for your culturevictory to kick in/or just keep beating people up. BnW then changed that focus to instead being all about building wonders and strategically place your cities so your UI could earn you plenty of culture/tourism and pray to the deity of your choice that the antiquity sites didn't completely mess your planning up :D.
    Our lord-commander then added an extra line to his UA which lead to his new playstyle, where he beats up his neighbors and steal their lunchmoney while simultaniously trying to build wonders in your capital(because cities that you conquer are not nearly cool enough to host your plunder). Yes as you might have realized by now, Napoleon is now a renaissance-viking.
    Ugly: I never liked the city of light UA, and for that exact reason I dislike the new one. I don't like how you are forced to have your wonders in Paris, if you build Paris in a poor location with bad production you've pretty much screwed your UA over. The musketeer is old and he haven't aged well, he is now just 4 CS ahead of the unit he replaces, which makes him pretty much useless. I have yet to decipher the techtree and is therefore not onehundred percent sure about what yields the UI provides :D.
    Solution: Less CS more promotions for the UU. Maybe let the UA work in all cities, but I'm honestly not sure it that is fitting. It just mostly makes me sad how the Asthetics finisher works in all cities :D. Othervise adding something for the earlygame to the UA would make sense, maybe 1 culture per city?

    German
    Good: UA/UB
    Bad: UU
    Ugly: I really don't like the UU, it arrives late, it doesn't actually do much when it arrives, it has zero synergy with the rest of the civ.
    Beautiful: The UB is glorious the synergy with the UA is also fantastic. It gives you a clear path to diplovictory but doesn't force you to go for it, indeed you can just as easily go for any other victory-type as extra production and power in the worldcongress never hurts.
    Solution: I honestly still want to replace the panzer, since it neither makes sense historically or is very useful. If that fails I would move its extra power and movespeed to promotions so it actually can remain relevant when upgraded to modern armor.

    Greek
    Good: UA
    Bad: UU/UB
    Ugly: Here is the deal. Greece have always had a very solid UA, and it is still solid, even more so now after a random buff it recieved :D but and the but is as always huge. Neither the UU nor the UB actually has anything to do with the UA or eachother it is like one can't really decide on what to do with Greece. The UU is focused on conquest (not that it really does a good job on that however), the UB is focused on tourism, I think, while the UA still is the solid diplo-powerhouse it has always been.
    Unlike Bismarck who is focused but flexible, Alexander is diverse and inflexible(is that even a word?). The worst part of this is that Greece isn't a bad civ, the UA just carries the entire civ on its mighty shoulders.
    Solution: The UB needs a buff, badly. right now it is an ampitheatre with its great slot of writing filled and with an extra 1 gold maintenance (and let me point this out, unless you're actually going for tourism victory, imho, great works that doesn't provide a themingbonus are pointless). I'd give somekinda buff to the UU aswell, as I don't think the great generals promotion is that useful, especially on a earlygameunit that you mostly use to clear out barbs.

    Hunnic
    Good: UI
    Bad: -
    Discussion: The only reason why the UA and UU aren't included in the 'Good' is because it would serve to diminish how great the UI actually is.
    The huns are a complete powerhouse bent on worlddomination. They are like the old huns only instead of falling off after the ancient era they stay relevant. The UI opened up so many new possible playstyles for the huns that I've actually managed to finish two games as them, something that I've only done before on small pangeamaps. I dislike warmongering, but I don't dislike playing as the huns anymore, which should give you some insight into what I'm talking about.
    Solution: Don't change what isn't broken.

    Incan
    Good: UI/UA
    Bad: UU
    Discussion: Their startingbias along with their UA/UI almost always give Inca a great start, and in civ great starts usually translates into great games. Nearby hills gives Inca great production which their UI translates into great food and their UA translates into great defense and cheap cityconnections. It is quite impossible to attack into hills against someone whose army moves like scouts. That being said I honestly believe their UU to be pathetic. Yes I bet you've all crushed legions of units with your slingers, or gotten crushed by legions of slingers. But that's just the thing, a normal archer could do the same thing, the only thing that makes the slinger great is the fact that it can move quickly in hills, something that all incan units do(with the exception of mounted archers, because reasons). The withdraw-ability isn't bad but it sure wouldn't be enough to carry this unit if it was part of any other civ.
    Solution: Throw some other promotion on the UU to make it more viable. Make the freedom buffed farm policy work on terracefarms :D

    Indian
    Good: UA
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: The truth is I don't like either the UB or the UU at the moment, they are both rather underwhelming. The UA is awesome and fits my playstyle perfectly, It feels like a better verson of the celtic UA. The UB just doesn't provide that much, +1 production/food feels rather underwhelming, as does the increased maintenance. +1 food on floodplains feels rather situational, but I could buy it.
    The UUs great sellingpoint is that it can walk two steps in hills or forest/jungle but not forested/jungled hills, but more likely, move one step and still fire. And while that is rather impressive it doesn't quite qualify for a goldstar in my book since I'm guessing that promotion doesn't carry over when upgraded(since it isn't actually a promotion). It also have slightly more RCS and even more CS making it somewhat less vulnerable to stuff trying to kill it.
    Solution: A small buff to the UB aswell as lowering its maintenance would help.
    Adding stuff that carries over on upgrade to the UU.

    Indonesian
    Good: UB/(UA)
    Bad: UU/(UA)
    Ugly: Indonesia really suffers from being Indonesia. The UA is great when you actually get it to work and somewhat mediocre when you don't get it to work.
    The UU with its weird randompromotion varies between being pretty good to being terrible. On average it is better than a swordsman, but in my opinion the average is too weak for a unique unit.
    Solution: Removing the citylimit of the UA would help. Adding something else to the UU would also help.

    Iroquois
    Good: UB/(UA)
    Bad: UU
    Ugly: First of all, the UU isn't that bad. It just really suffers from the changed upgradepath. The main reason I put it in there is because it just is straight up worse than the jaguar even counting the woodsmanpromotion that it gets from the UA, not from itself. The UB and UA are sadly extremely terraindependant but that is fine since they are both pretty powerful. Automated workers completely butchers your roadnetwork however so it would be nice to add a line for roads being maintenance free on top of forest (in friendly territory) if only to not lose gold because the workers wont stop building roads.
    Solution: Add some buff to the UU. Make the UA work for civilian units aswell (woodsman promotion)

    Japanese
    Good:(UA?)
    Bad:?
    Ugly/Discussion: Japan, in my opinion suffers for lack of synergy and mediocre uniques.
    The UB is an armory-replacement with mediocre buffs and increased maintenance. It is also interestingly enough placed on the opposite side of the techtree from the UU so that you can't make use of how they would normally unlock at the same tech.
    The UU is straight up better than the unit you upgrade it to with 1 higher CS. It also possesses the imho mediocre abilty to spawn great generals faster and is also able to build fishingboats, for some unknown reason.
    The UA is the main sellingpoint of the civ, making your units slightly better at fighting while also providing some culture from searesources/atolls something that was added to create some synergy with the fishingboatbuilding samurai I guess.
    Solution: Lower the maintenance on the UB, raise the other things it provides.
    Rework the UU, the two alternatives I see are:
    1. Lower the CS to 21(base) and add a some really powerful promotion(s) like possibly blitz, I'd also replace the great generals promotion with something useful like drill.
    2. Keep the CS at 25, make it upgrade directly to Fusiliers, replace Great generals promotion with something more useful.

    Korean
    Good: UA/UB
    Bad:UU
    Ugly: The UA might now have changed but it is worse that it is in the basegame, which honestly is great considering basegame Korea was extremely overpowering. The UB is good, possibly too good. Not compared to other UBs but considering the unique circumstances. Vanilla Korea had two UUs that were both designed to ruin your day, they were both terrible and made sure you couldn't conquer cities or explore the ocean. All to balance out the fact that Koreas UA was so extremely powerful. Now replacing one of those UUs with an actual good UB might be overdoing it, but I'm confident we can make it work somehow.
    Solution: If a nerf is needed I'd look at that weird mini-reserach-agreement you get when constructing sciencebuildings in your capital. It is weird, out of place and really isn't needed.

    Mayan
    Good: The UA
    Bad: The UU
    Ugly: The Mayans recently got a huge buff when Gazebo moved the their UAs trigger to calender rather than theology. I had no idea how big it would actually be tbh but I managed to fill out the entire calender (grab all different great people) before I quit the game and actually realized that it does reset when it is filled out (something I never actually managed to do in the basegame). It was getting rather late in the game (and the way time works in the game makes you get great people exponentially slower the later the game goes on. Because every turn is worth less time and every turn is worth more gameplay later on) so I'm not sure how many more GP I would have gotten from it. Anyways it is totally awesome now.
    The UB is boring, both because of the effects and because of it being a shrine. If anyone could find a way to actually make an earlygame building interesting, please do tell me.
    The UU is complete garbage, I have no idea how it actually stayed in the game for this long but it really needs to go. It's an archer-replacement available one tech earlier and costing 20% less production to build, that's it.
    Solution: Seriously buff the UU with some interesting unique promotions, if you feel that is overpowered then move it back to hunting, honestly this is probably the worst UU in the game, mostly because you can actually find uses for the Hwacha.
    Again, if there is some way to make the pyramid interesting, please tell me.

    Mongolian
    Good: The UU
    Bad: -
    Ugly: The Mongolian UU is extremely solid, with the nerfs to regeneration in enemy(and neutral) territory it is the best way to keep your army alive during a siege. In all honesty it might even be too good, but that's because the normal medicpromotion is bad.
    However, the Mongols have two other uniques both which bothers me.
    First of all they have a UA that forces you to anex citystates when you accidently move your army too close to them, and makes the entire civilized world hate you.
    Second they have a UB that replaces bonuses of the original building, and if you are anything like me, whenever I play Mongolia you can bet on that I'm going to be stuck with tons of wheat, bananas and deer and nothing to do with them because my UB likes sheep instead. While this is just a minor issue it is going to keep bugging me forever.
    Solution: I have no clue honestly, I'm not going to base changes on the fact that I don't like some intentional features of a civ.

    Moroccan
    Good: ?
    Bad: ?
    Ugly/Discussion: Morocco is extremely confusing and extremely random.
    They usually but not always start in desert which is a living hell earlygame but extremely overpowered lategame. Earlygame in a desert means you can't scout at all, and there are going to be barbs everywhere, your workers can barely move and usually gets caught by barbs. Keeping caravans alive is a living help because since no sane person would walk in the desert, barbcamps are going to keep spawning everywhere and generally just ruin your day. You are pretty much forced into the honor policytree to have a chance to deal with all the barbs/barbcamps. Not to mention deserttiles are horrible, you can't farm them, they give no yields, I think it takes longer time to build improvements on them aswell. Later on you get access to your kasbahs and the deserttiles aren't all that bad anymore. They are still not really workable but you can build kasbahs on deserthills and floodplains which makes for really decent yields actually. Lategame you get access to the policy in Imperialism that turns desertiles into the best tiles in the game and you're the only one able to build improvements on them, so you're pretty much set after that.
    Alternatively you can start outside of the desert and pretty much have no uniques, which is nice aswell.
    The UA gives the ability for you to trade GPT for golden age points by sending your caravans to less profitable places for increased income, usually this ends up as a net loss in gold but a plus of 1 culture and 2 GAP per traderoute and turn, which is nice.
    The UU drew the short straw of being the only Cavalry replacement to still be bad after the cav itself got buffed. Don't get me wrong the unit is an improvement over the normal cav but not in any way that mean something. It fights better in desert which means if someone is insane enough to walk into the desert, you can kill him. But since normal people avoid the desert you're going to have a really fancy borderguard that for some reason also walks slowly in the desert, which makes no sense at all :D
    Solution: Give the UU that promotion that lets it keep normal movespeed in deserts, I mean it is supposed to be somekinda sand-ninja.
    I'd add a line to the UA as in CEP where your civilian units can move unhindered in desert, mostly for quality of life.
    Also either this UA or the Ottoman UA needs to go, because they are basically the same.

    Ottoman
    Good: ?
    Bad: -
    Ugly: I don't know where I should start really, the Ottomans are really solid. Their UU is not as good as it used to be, but it is still one of the better ones in the game.
    Their UB is really solid, and since it arrives at the same time as the UU you can really start working on your conquest. If your neighbor doesn't fall to your renaissance era push then you're not playing it right! :D The full power of the UU carries over when upgraded and the UB works just as well for artillery and rocketartillery as it does for trebuchets and cannons so your warfare got great stayingpower.
    Your UA gives you the ability to gain golden age points from your Caravans, which is the exact same ability Morocco has.
    Solution: Either this UA or the Moroccan one needs to be replaced because they do the same thing.
    I'd suggest removing the GAP-from the caravanbonus and instead make them do somekinda mini-resarch-agreement when they finish instead. That way you can go for a sciencevictory if you get bored of conquest. And the number of sciencefocused civs in the game isn't that high.

    Persian
    Good: ?
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: I don't know what to make of Persia, there is no real explanation in the civpedia about their UB so I'll just assume it's a bank with +1 happiness which is pretty decent.
    Their UU is solid, it got hit pretty hard by the regeneration nerf but got buffed by the merging of the spearline with the rifleline (but then again considering lancers are really good now maybe the old upgradeline was better? :D) the old UU plan was to get march and then use it plus your double regen to just run everything over, but I have no clue if that still works.
    Their UA recently got buffed so they kinda have more direction now outside of just getting goldenages and hoping for the best but then again not really.
    Solution: Hard to say without knowing if the UB makes up for the lack of real a clear goal. Persia in GnK imho were made for culturevictory, now I just don't know. Maybe grab some things that scale with goldenages and hope for the best?.

    Polish
    Good: UA
    Bad: -
    Ugly: Poland always had that interesting thing where their UA, UB, and UU were just among the best in the game. Luckily for us the game seem to have caught up and most of their stuff is just solid now. Their UA however is still one of the better ones in the game imo. Their UU is now not the only good mounted unit in the game, but still probably the best one. Their UB isn't bad at all, it just isn't the best anymore.
    Solution: Nothing, Poland is still extremely good. Just more balanced.
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    What's with the 30000 symbol limit anyways?

    Polynesian
    Good: ?
    Bad: UU/UA
    Ugly: I'm going to be straight with you now, I never understood Polynesia at all, everything they have just seems really bad to me. Probably because I tend to play mostly on landbased maps, but I don't really have a problem with other naval civs, like Carthage and England. Their UI probably have some use, but it seems to me like it is way too situational where you find situations where you can stack them enough to get the numbers up.
    Their UU is terrible, honestly I have no idea how it got released like that, and how no one bothered fixing it yet. It is a normal warrior with one promotion, a promotion that in my opinion is mediocre at best. Compared to the other unique warrior, the Aztec Jaguar it just falls short in every way possible. I remember them announcing it as 'if you upgrade it it is going to be solid because the upgrade stays with you'. Newsflash, so does all 3 unique promotions on the Jaguar, and they are all better.
    The UA in my opinion is awful, it falls off as soon as you get to astronomy, which sure is quite a bit into the game, but even before falling off it hardly does anything, sure if you are playing continents and the continents aren't connected by shallow water(which they usually are whenever I'm playing for some reason) then I guess you could discover people and get that techbonus from meeting with the Ai up a little earlier. Recently they also recieved a 25% maintenance reduction on naval units, I don't know how much of a bandage that is however since the Ottomans didn't do too well even with 66% reduction.
    Solution: Buff the UU. Buff the UA. Find someone who actually understands how the UI works to tell me if it's good enough or not.
    Most of all, try to actually give the civ a goal, because I really don't see one.

    Portuguese
    Good: UI
    Bad: UA/UU
    Ugly: Honestly I dislike everything about Portugal. I think the UI is extremely boring. Sure it unique and according to people who actually bother playing Portugal/use the UI when the play Portugal it is apparently pretty good.
    My main problem with this is that when I play Portugal I go for a diplovictory, because that's what they are suited for imho, they have some extra gold, so they can buy citystates(vanilla was the last time I played them, so F off :D). And if you're buying citystates, then you really don't care about a UI that steal their luxuries, since you're getting it for being allies anyways.
    The UU you can apparently use to make gold, by buying it, sailing off to a citystate, sell goods and then disband, but I'm pretty sure that died with the raised goldprices in CPP. I guess you can still build them with production, sail off sell good, disband, but how much of a win would that be? Even assuming you have a harbor and filled out imperialism, building units still takes time, sailing units while paying maintenance still takes time so I have no clue if this is worth it, because I never bothered trying it.
    The UA gives you extra gold from your traderoutes, but someone argued in the UA thread that it actually gives you less gold over the entire game than discovering all natural wonders as Spain, and if that is true, Portugal is probably the absolute worst civ in the game.
    Solution: Nuke it from orbit and start over?
    Honestly I don't know, the UU seems useless, the UI seems weak and timeconsuming, and with the nerfed happiness from luxuries it just seems like a big hassle. If that one guy was to be believed the UA is also worthless and even if that isn't the case, the one thing portugal got going for it is that you're going to have a small ammount of more money than the others. It still doesn't have any direction or goal or tools or anything.

    Roman
    Good: The UA
    Bad: The UB and the UU
    Ugly: Seriously didn't want to bring this up again because everyone is going to hate me, as usual, but I REALLY dislike monument replacements. People are going to build the monument first anyways, adding a productionbonus to that doesn't really change anything adding a weird goldenage/great general thing to it makes it even more awkward, If the thing stacks, it is completely off the hook overpowered. You have 10 cities, suddenly you get 30 GAP and 30 GGP every time you kill a unit? 20 cities and you double that number. And I'm not speaking about theoretical numbers here, 20 cities isn't rare by any means, and if you start conquering, and I guess that's the point right? You're going to end up with way more than 20 cities (most of them puppets probably, but puppets can still build UBs). If it doesn't stack then it is pretty damn useless, and more than half the effect is lost after the your first UB is finished.
    The UU suffers from the same thing as most old UUs, it is all CS and no promotions, making it useless once it upgrades.
    The UA is the saving grace, and it is one of my favorite UAs in the game. Sure it isn't extremely powerful, a productionbonus that only works for buildings, with a penalty. But I love it anyways.
    Solution: Remove some CS from the UU and add cover 1 and 2 promotions to it.
    Scrap the UB and start over. I'd still suggest a market-replacement, a Forum since that was generally the most important structure in every Roman city.

    Russian
    Good: UU/UB/UA
    Bad: -
    Ugly: I was deciding between writing all of the uniques in the good tab or nothing. They are all pretty solid in their own way and they are all better than they were in vanilla. UA is stronger since strategic resources are more important and more expensive. UB is stronger because of the added effect and the fact that baracks generally are better now even if you don't produce units with them. UU is way stronger now because Cav are stronger in general and the charge-promotion got better because units tend to stay wounded because of regeneration and no instantheal promotion.
    Solution: Not sure one is needed, if needed bump the UA up to cover all strategic resources like it was in from the start(I think), or just for symmetry.

    Shoshone
    Good: UI/UU/UA
    Bad: -
    Discussion: There is absolutely nothing wrong with Shoshone, this is textbook how you design a civ, honestly.
    You have your UU scouting, around letting you choose your ancient-ruin rewards, making sure your start is awesome, you have the landgrab part of your UA save you gold on buying tiles while settling new cities in the good areas you scouted out, and you can pretty much settle as close to your neighbors as you want, because your landgrab can steal his resources, and the defensive part of your UA plus your UI helps you defend your lands. If people leave you alone you have your extremely powerful UI to fall back on making sure you're getting as much if not more out of waiting around as your neighbors do.
    Solution: Don't fix what isn't broken.

    Siamese
    Good: UB/UA
    Bad: -
    Ugly: Both the UB and the UA of Siam are extremely solid, they both focus on completely different things, but that is totally fine because science is always nice, culture is always nice, and citystate allies are always nice. The nice thing about it all is that you're not locked into a role, your UA awards grabbing citystates, but no one forces you to go diplo just because of that.
    The UU I still think is pretty mediocre, but it isn't as bad as others so I'll let it pass.
    Solution: I think Siam is fine.

    Songhai
    Good: ?
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: The main problem with Songhai is that nothing in particular stands out, their temple-replacement UB is pretty solid, but nothing to write home about really.
    Their UA is a mashup of different more or less useful things. The extra plunder from barbcamps should be solid, but with the extremely expensive buyprices of everything in the earlygame the bonus could be five times the value and still not be useful. The promotions however are way more interesting, both of them are pretty damn solid, nothing fantastic, but still solid enough. Their UU suffers from the normal issue of not upgrading very well.(Anyways if I remember correctly the removal of negative promotions never carry over, while positive promotions usually do)
    Solution: Make the UB somewhat more memorable, make the UA more interesting maybe let units not lose movement while crossing rivers?
    Most important of all fix the UU, add a promotion giving cityattack instead of removing the negative promotion, adding something else aswell wouldn't hurt because just one promotion is pretty underwhelming.

    Spanish
    Good: UA
    Bad: UA
    Ugly: Anyone else noticed how this UU does everything the Songhai does, and way more? At the same price and the same tech, weird how these things happen.
    Nothing is more frustrating than playing a civ that's based on RNG, and Spain is more RNGdependant than anyone (except possibly the dutch). You're completely relying on finding Natural wonders and trying to settle them. Good thing is that compared to the basegame all NWs are actually good now, and even if you can't settle them you still get something for it, you get double the happiness from discovering them which in the basegame isn't very powerful because happiness is plentyful and unhappiness even more. But in CPP happiness is rare, and every little bit counts.
    The UU is solid, I would still replace the removal of cityattack-penalty with a promotion doing to same thing just because of upgrades, but it is nowhere near as important as it was with the songhai. The UB seems solid enough, I still haven't gotten the chance to use it but I can imagine it being pretty good actually.
    Solution: You really can't fix the RNG-dependance.

    Swedish
    Good: The UB
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: To be perfectly honest I'm not even sure what to think anymore. The UB is pretty damn solid, that much I know.
    But the new UA, how does it work? It sounds really damn weak, I mean 15% extra influence from diplounits? That's hardly anything.
    The UU, used to be fantastic, starting with march, the one promotion to rule them all in vanilla. Now I'm honestly not sure, how does march work with new regeneration system? If all you heal every turn in enemy territory is 5, then march is close to useless. Sure you could get medicpromotions, but they still don't affect the unit with the medicpromotion. Anyways it does not change the fact that 5 heal per turn is hardly worth a promotion and especially not being the only sellingpoint for a UU.
    Solution: Buffs to the UU at the very least. I still haven't tried the UA out, so I'm not going to claim it needs to be changed, but it sounds pretty damn weak.

    Venetian
    Good: UA
    Bad: UB/UU
    Ugly: Always kinda hard to judge the UU and the UA of venice seperately. But having double the traderoutes rocks. Being forced to rely om burning great merchants to get cities up usually suck. Personally when I play venice I usually end up settling all the free MoV as customhouses the one from optics, the one from the pyramids and the one from that might-policy which by itself is stupid but it kinda tells you my feelings on Venice. I mean I can take cities with my fleet if I want, but I can't build customhouses with my fleet :D
    Anyways I don't think the UB does enough considering it is a NW and you only get one of it but then again a normal NW wouldn't really be much use either. I kinda just expected something more out of a NW-replacement.
    Solution: Bring back the Great galleas, Venice can have 3 uniques, I mean the MoV hardly counts since it is a consequence of the UA not allowing you to build settlers :D.
    Buff the UB and make it more exciting somehow.

    Zulu
    Good: -
    Bad: ?
    Ugly: First of all I don't think it would be unreasonable to let the Ikanda promotions work on gunpowder-units aswell. I see no reason why it should have to go obsolete halfway into the game.
    Second I don't think anything on the Impi actually carries over, I think i tested it out at somepoint in vanilla and the spear-throwing isn't actually tied to the promotion but to the baseunit kinda leaving the whole thing kinda boring.
    I don't think the maintenance reduction for meleeunits in the UA works for gunpowderunits which is also really boring. Other than that Zulu is kinda solid during that one period in time where all their stuff works.
    Solution: Kinda brought up 3 points that I think should be improved.



    Okay I'm finally done here, took way longer than I actually thought it would. Probably because I'm lazy and weird and busy and stupid. Anyways I've done what I can now, so please pay me back with some discussion, or atleast criticize my grammar or something. Good night!
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I'm keeping this one hostage because that's just who I am.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Some good stuff here, Funak. While I may not agree with every point (I'll be dead and cold before I get rid of my sweet, sweet Triumphal Arches :) ), I think your focus on the weaker UUs is needed. I don't think every one needs a special promotion to pass on, but some (like the Slinger and Atlatlist) are just plain terrible and need to be shuffled around. Ideally, I'd like to see a move away from ancient-era units - perhaps moving some UUs (like those two) into the Classical/Medieval period. The Maori Warrior would be a fun sight in the Middle Ages as a powerful Longswordsman replacement.

    G
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Please tell me my point about them is wrong :D.
    I don't even know how it works, but in both assumed scenarios it fails :D

    I know I might have written special or unique in a few places where it doesn't belong, but my point is that promotions, even standard promotions carry on when upgraded while just plain CS is lost to the ages. Sometimes you just don't have the opportunity to attack during a exact timeperiod where your UU is active, and while the full power of the UU doesn't need to carry on when upgraded, I think most of it should. I mean you should be awarded for keeping your uniques alive, don't you think so? :D

    The Atlatlist and the Moai-warrior I really have no idea what they were thinking. The slinger however I can see exactly what they were thinking, the problem is just that proper unitblocking and hillwalking keeps incan archers alive just fine withdrawal would be useful on on maybe a ship-of-the-line or a hwacha, even a babylonian bowman, but even on those units it wouldn't be good enough to carry the entire UU.
    The real problem is honestly that the devs made a too big of a difference between uniques in the first place. I mean what could possibly match up to a Jaguar in unique promotions? The only real choices are nerfing the jaguar or bringing the rest of the UUs atleast close.

    Maybe, but there is already a crossbow-replacement and a comp-bow replacement, wouldn't want too many replacements for the same baseunits. (old cavalry, lol :D)
    Just giving the Mayan UU some solid promotions and it could probably stand on its own. Maybe woodsman + march or something like that?
     
  6. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    I'm curious about the general approach here in terms of synergy vs flexibility of the UU/UA/UB of each civilisation. My feeling is that there needs to be a balance between the two, so you can find ways of making the uniques work together, but that you are also not completely bound to focus on a particular victory condition with each civ. That way the exact way you play a game also depends on the landscape and neighbors, so you can't really choose the huns for example and assume a victory condition is the only option.

    Another thing I would like to float again here is the idea of linking the uniques of each civ to the difficulty levels of the game. Would it be interesting to make deity level gameplay different from lower levels in that the uniques of each civilisation are increased in strength? That would make playing deity a matter of understanding the uniques of all your neighbors and exploiting weaknesses while avoiding confrontation with strong uniques. Perhaps making unique abilities percentage based rather than flat would be a way to make this possible, and make uniques stand out against the flat bonus structure of the base game.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    This was just general thought and feedback really. I tried pointing out synergy and variation in gameplay for some things, but if I was going to point out every little thing this would have taken even more time than it did :D

    The Deity-tier-list was based on just that. Which civs have an easier time to turn a bad start around. Sometimes you have a lot of choices and sometimes you're forced into a role. Just the Huns however feels like a bad example because I really feel like their UI makes them able to do anything :D

    I don't see why this would be needed, everyone who played deity in vanilla know that you should stay the hell away from napolean when he gets his musketeers out, extra bonuses or not he will murder you.
     
  8. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    I agree the Huns are an example of how a new set of uniques gives them more interesting flexibility. Would it be worth considering each civ and listing their most likely primary and secondary victory conditions given their history and current abilities? It might give a sense of balance/variety of combinations with the current set and highlight any missing or rare combinations.

    Another idea for an effect to incorporate somewhere: would it be possible to give great generals and/or admirals the ability to increase the rate of experience gain by nearby troops? Maybe would be good for China coupled with increased GG production rate. The AI should benefit since they already know how to use GG reasonably well. You could limit the overlap with the Zulu UA by making the effect a bit stronger to balance it being more situational. A more fun way would be to bulb the GG to get instant experience boost for nearby troops, but I doubt the AI could use it.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Alright, I'll respond counter-wise with some ideas I've been kicking about.

    American
    Every time America buys a tile, it should get some Golden Age Points or Great General Points.

    Arabian
    Arabia is, in my opinion, fine right now.

    Assyrian
    Fine as is.
    Austrian
    Fine as is. Having a mid/late game ramp-up civ is okay.

    Aztec
    Aztecs given buff in newest (unreleased version) - culture from kills will improve capital culture.

    Babylonian
    Babylon is fine. GSs are great, and the Civ works overall.

    Brazilian
    We could move the Pracinha to the Modern era, giving it a longer amount of time to be useful.

    Byzantine
    Byzantium gets a buff - free Great Prophet at Theology. For a civ in dire need of a religion, a free GP at Theology makes sense.

    Carthaginian
    UA is strong, and is available for a long time. Not to be scoffed at.

    Celtic
    Celts were doubled recently (Faith UA) so they're usually one of the first civs to get a religion. That's pretty big, considering that Religion is so much stronger overall. Also, free Musician points from the Hall is thematic and useful (especially if you are going for tourism).

    Chinese
    China's UA has always been dull in my mind, but it is functional and pretty useful during war. The Paper Maker is okay, especially with the extra gold.

    Danish
    I think the Danes are fine right now.

    Dutch
    Polders on the coast is simply not going to happen, especially as so much of the DLL is hardcoded for the Dutch to favor marshes. A little RNG is okay. Also, the Sea Beggar is really strong - it could stand toe-to-toe with most units until the Destroyer.

    Egyptian
    The Chariot Archer is pretty dull. I'm considering adding a 'production in Capital on kill' (i.e. 'Enslavement') bonus to make the Chariot Archer more interesting.

    English
    England is much stronger now, as it gets 1-5 more spies than everyone else. The Steam Mill is perfectly strong right now (no Coal requirement is huge).

    Ethiopian
    I think Ethiopia is fine. The Stele is really good, and having monument UBs is not a problem.

    French
    France is much stronger now. Let's leave them as-is for a bit.

    German
    The Panzer is really good for late-game blitzing.

    Greek
    Greek flexibility is pretty good. I've fixed the Odeon maintenance in the latest version, which should help some.

    Hunnic
    Agree.

    Incan
    The Slinger needs help.

    Indian
    I've fixed maintenance on Reservoir in newest version. Should help. Naga-Malla is really strong.

    Indonesian
    The Candi got a buff (more food than Garden) and the UA is pretty solid, especially as the resources give more gold than normal plantations.

    Iroquois
    I'm going to make the mohawk available a bit earlier (like the berserker) to help make it more valuable.

    Japanese
    I've fixed the dojo maintenance. I think the Samurai can be stronger, perhaps even with a bonus against gunpowder units (like the Impi).

    Korean
    Korea is fine.

    Mayan
    The Atlatlist needs love. The Pyramid is okay - early science is great.

    Mongolian
    I think the Mongols are fine.

    Moroccan
    I think the UA is unique enough from the Ottomans that they can both stay the same. We could change Morocco's yields (make it something aside from GAP- perhaps Faith).

    The UU needs move fast in deserts, I agree.

    Ottoman
    I like the Ottomans.

    Persian
    Let's see how they fare with their recent buff.

    Polish
    Poland is fine.

    Polynesian
    The Moai is a great culture farm. The Maori Warrior needs to be moved - I'm thinking Longswordsman replacement. The UA is fine - it is thematic, and the 25% naval gold reduction is helpful all game.

    Portuguese
    Their UA makes them have the highest GPT of any civ except for Venice, and the UI is great if used correctly. My plan for them is this: I'm going to make the Nau 'sell goods' mechanic auto-create a Fetoria if you do it to a CS. That should work well.

    Roman
    I think Rome is fine right now.

    Russian
    Agree.

    Shoshone
    Agree.

    Siamese
    Agree.

    Songhai
    They get huge bonuses from conquering stuff and clearing camps, elements that are viable the whole game. They're a war civ, and war need a war focus.

    The MPM could be stronger though, at least in a more unique way. Probably a war buff (perhaps +xp or something).

    Spanish
    Spain's fine. Risky, but fine.

    Swedish
    I fixed UB maintenance issue. Their new UA is really solid - give it a shot.

    Venetian
    I think Venice is fine right now. Doge's Palace is free, instant, and gives Venice a great head-start.

    Zulu
    I'm going to increase the Ikanda's XP a bit to help round them out.
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Yay, brainstorming :D

    American
    Every time America buys a tile, it should get some Golden Age Points or Great General Points.

    My problem with this is twofold.
    1. I don't think you should be able to effectively buy GAP or GPP for gold. Just in the same way i was against getting food when buying tiles in the honor policy discussion ages ago.
    2. As mentioned before America is painful because of the earlygame, and both GAP and GGP won't really help with that.


    Arabian
    Arabia is, in my opinion, fine right now.

    Arabia have a halfdecent but not amazing UB.
    Arabia have a UU with no promotion that carries on and no powerincrease. In the same way as the slinger, this is just not amazing design.
    Arabia have a pretty useless UA that relies on you getting a religion, but doesn't help you get one, and doesn't even help you once you get one. Yes I understand that it is way better than it was in vanilla, but in vanilla you had the best UU and the best UB in the game to carry you.


    I can buy that, I'd just like someone who actually plays assyria on a regular basis to give his feedback :D

    Aztec
    Aztecs given buff in newest (unreleased version) - culture from kills will improve capital culture.

    Commented on this in the other thread

    Babylonian
    Babylon is fine. GSs are great, and the Civ works overall.

    Anyone who actually played Babylon more than once recently that can confirm this? Because I just think academies are way too weak to bother with earlygame.(and lategame). I guess I'll do a Babylon-playthrough myself then and see if I can make it work.

    Brazilian
    We could move the Pracinha to the Modern era, giving it a longer amount of time to be useful.

    Do you mean as in making it a Rifleman replacement or making it an infantry-replacement thats available earlier as part of its bonus?

    Byzantine
    Byzantium gets a buff - free Great Prophet at Theology. For a civ in dire need of a religion, a free GP at Theology makes sense.

    Powerful but probably misdirected, by the time you get to theology you'll already have your UBs up and by then it shouldn't be a problem getting a religion. The problem is getting started. Getting your pantheon and getting your first 100ish faith before you reach philosophy(or wherever temples unlock).
    The main problem is that the two easy solutions are already taken, Start with a pantheon(india) and start with faithgeneration in your capital(celts).


    Carthaginian
    UA is strong, and is available for a long time. Not to be scoffed at.

    Yes, I was suggesting nerfing it in favor for giving the UU some love

    Celtic
    Celts were doubled recently (Faith UA) so they're usually one of the first civs to get a religion. That's pretty big, considering that Religion is so much stronger overall. Also, free Musician points from the Hall is thematic and useful (especially if you are going for tourism).

    Again, not really complaining about the idea, mostly that it falls off if you improve the forests. Atleast keep the first tier of the UA alive even with no forests?
    Not 100% sure the musician points are actually useful, all the use I can see for it is buying the hall in all cities at the same time and making sure you have no GP% mods so you can get one musician in every city at the same turn 200 turns later.
    A musician specialist I could buy, but just random points, nah.


    Chinese
    China's UA has always been dull in my mind, but it is functional and pretty useful during war. The Paper Maker is okay, especially with the extra gold.

    I'm just saying since it is improving one aspect of the great general it should probably improve the other aspect aswell, or you'd just be forced to use your generals in a specific way.
    Flat extra gold just isn't fun, atleast compared to other more interesting UBs


    Danish
    I think the Danes are fine right now.

    They might be, but I just don't like unitmods that aren't promotions.

    Dutch
    Polders on the coast is simply not going to happen, especially as so much of the DLL is hardcoded for the Dutch to favor marshes. A little RNG is okay. Also, the Sea Beggar is really strong - it could stand toe-to-toe with most units until the Destroyer.

    The seabegger is fine, but until you can get a oceanbias on netherlands, which you can't because of the marsh-focus you still have to flip a coin if you actually get to the coast to be able to use it.
    Also CEP managed to fix that ocean DLL thing, their dutch AIs did just fine.


    Egyptian
    The Chariot Archer is pretty dull. I'm considering adding a 'production in Capital on kill' (i.e. 'Enslavement') bonus to make the Chariot Archer more interesting.

    Consider giving it extra movespeed in desert aswell, not really sure if Egypt have desert-bias, but it seems fitting

    English
    England is much stronger now, as it gets 1-5 more spies than everyone else. The Steam Mill is perfectly strong right now (no Coal requirement is huge).

    The main problem here is that we are both set in out opinions, and there aren't any other players around to give feedback that could offset the balance. I know you're not going to change your mind, and I sure as hell am not going to either :D

    Ethiopian
    I think Ethiopia is fine. The Stele is really good, and having monument UBs is not a problem.

    I disagree, as mentioned their UA makes little sense and the rest of their kit doesn't match it at all

    French
    France is much stronger now. Let's leave them as-is for a bit.

    I wasn't really suggesting buffing anything. I wanted to shift the power of the musketeer from just CS to some cs and a promotion.

    German
    The Panzer is really good for late-game blitzing.

    If you say so.

    Greek
    Greek flexibility is pretty good. I've fixed the Odeon maintenance in the latest version, which should help some.

    Atleast that's something :D

    Indian
    I've fixed maintenance on Reservoir in newest version. Should help. Naga-Malla is really strong.

    Babysteps

    Indonesian
    The Candi got a buff (more food than Garden) and the UA is pretty solid, especially as the resources give more gold than normal plantations.

    I'm just saying that it shouldn't stop working after the first 4 cities because that kinda forces you to try and place your first 4 cities on islands, because that's the only way to get that effect. And I still think the UU is weak

    Iroquois
    I'm going to make the mohawk available a bit earlier (like the berserker) to help make it more valuable.

    Could help

    Japanese
    I've fixed the dojo maintenance. I think the Samurai can be stronger, perhaps even with a bonus against gunpowder units (like the Impi).

    Again, consider the two suggestions I made, you're pretty much forced to go with one of them. Also Impi isn't strong against gunpowder units.

    Korean
    Korea is fine.

    I still think it's overtuned. Babylon lost a lot of power and Korea gained power both by design and by changes in CPP compared to vanilla. And imo Korea was already stronger than Babylon in vanilla

    Mayan
    The Atlatlist needs love. The Pyramid is okay - early science is great.

    Maybe.

    Mongolian
    I think the Mongols are fine.

    Okay

    Moroccan
    I think the UA is unique enough from the Ottomans that they can both stay the same. We could change Morocco's yields (make it something aside from GAP- perhaps Faith).
    The UU needs move fast in deserts, I agree.

    Ottoman
    I like the Ottomans.

    Something needs to change and I can't really understand why you refuse to comment on my Ottoman suggestion :D


    Persian
    Let's see how they fare with their recent buff.

    Polish
    Poland is fine.

    Okay

    Polynesian
    The Moai is a great culture farm. The Maori Warrior needs to be moved - I'm thinking Longswordsman replacement. The UA is fine - it is thematic, and the 25% naval gold reduction is helpful all game.

    Possibly, I played a whole game as Polynesia, the moai still makes no sense to me :D
    Where are those Polynerds when you need them? :D


    Portuguese
    Their UA makes them have the highest GPT of any civ except for Venice, and the UI is great if used correctly. My plan for them is this: I'm going to make the Nau 'sell goods' mechanic auto-create a Fetoria if you do it to a CS. That should work well.

    That sounds like a step in the right direction anyways, will make Portugal less painful to play so one can actually figure out what's wrong.

    Roman
    I think Rome is fine right now.

    I disagree

    I've noticed a trend where you agree with me when I say stuff is fine :D

    Songhai
    They get huge bonuses from conquering stuff and clearing camps, elements that are viable the whole game. They're a war civ, and war need a war focus.

    The MPM could be stronger though, at least in a more unique way. Probably a war buff (perhaps +xp or something).

    You didn't even comment on the UU being straight up worse than the spanish one? :D
    Thought i was going to blow your mind with that one.


    Spanish
    Spain's fine. Risky, but fine.

    Yes

    Swedish
    I fixed UB maintenance issue. Their new UA is really solid - give it a shot.

    I never get past the earlygame as Sweden, tundra-startingbias just murders any fun I'm trying to have :D

    Venetian
    I think Venice is fine right now. Doge's Palace is free, instant, and gives Venice a great head-start.

    I was using the great galleasses to expand when I played Venice, I guess I could use normal ones but it just isn't the same :D

    Zulu
    I'm going to increase the Ikanda's XP a bit to help round them out.

    And still not let it work after gunpowder?
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    If I didn't comment on one of you ppints, it isn't because I ignored it, but rather I need to brainstorm a bit to get a better feel for the change.

    G
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Sure thing, but you must have some opinion on the songhai knight being 2 sight-range enbarked defense and the ability to settle cities short of the spanish one?

    While I love brainstorming, waiting for it to happen is counterproductive since people here doesn't seem to have any opinions about anything. (that being the main reason why I keep pressuring you for your opinions :D)
     
  13. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Chieftain

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    Aug 13, 2014
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    One note on Assyria: They were hurt badly by the pyramidal dependencies added to the tech tree. Because it essentially forces you to go wide in the tech tree rather than deep, you're much less likely to actually get anything out of conquering cities unless they flat out out-tech you. The previous strategy, as I understand it, was to focus purely on military tech yourself and just let conquered cities fill out the rest. Honestly the pyramidal dependencies frustrate me in general. Why does my land-locked society have to learn sailing before I can use calendar resources? Why do I have to learn how to make roads (only useful once I've expanded) before I can see iron (which would help me decide where to expand).
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Indeed - waiting is, generally, counterproductive, unless your 'work' is waiting.

    G

    You can reach pretty far up the tree without having to 'go wide.' I don't think it is any more restrictive than the previous tech tree, except for the fact that you can't get more than 2 eras ahead without having to know all of a previous era's techs.

    G
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Sure, but it sounded like you refraining from answering to wait for someone else to give input, which generally doesn't happen.



    Actually I'm pretty sure this is a buff, since the AI is more likely to have all earlier techs (unlikely to have done the same beeline as you have)

    Edit: That is my experience from spying after the techchange anyways.
    If the extra spies hurts Assyria however is another question. You can catch up pretty damn well with spies now so unless you're fighting your equals/superiors you're unlikely to get any valueable tech(from my spying experience anyways)
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    An easy solution to this would be for me to add in a 'failsafe' (as with France) in which Assyria receives a lump sum of science if it can't steal a tech. It'd make sense, and keep their UA relevant whether or not they are a tech leader.

    G
     
  17. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Well the UA is kinda designed to make it less valueable to prey on weaklings, it is probably fine as it is
     
  18. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
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    528
    What exactly Egyptian Charriot Archer abillity does? I have tryed to kill barbarian, and other players' units but it didn't give me extra production. I tryed to count production in the same and following turn but nothing changed.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I thought the same, but Gazebo claims that it gives you production in your capital on the next turn and I really don't feel like starting a game as Egypt again.
     
  20. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Messages:
    528
    Question: Is that possible to give each leader 3 uniques (buildings,units,upgrades)?

    I think that it'd be great if every leader has 3 uniques. There are many interesting things that make leaders more interesting that were deleted for other things. For example Japanese Zero's or Norwegian Sky Infantry. Both are very interesting and there are more, more or less interesting special units and buildings.

    I know that for example Zero's don't fit to Japanese medieval Oda theme but if we go this way, then we should remove Gandhi's war elephants and so on.

    Norwegian Sky Infantry is very interesting formation :D
     

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