General Leader Discussion

[Funak]

Supposed to be 10/10 on Paper Maker, not 15/15. I was doing 15 on GA, then decided to reduce to 10/10 for the WLTKD element.

Still don't think another scientist on top of this is a good solution. Maybe adding another point of base science (so it starts at the same value as a normal library and grows from there) would be enough?
I mean this is essentially 10% bonus science in the capital 100% of the time and in the rest of the cities maybe 50% of the time, on top of that you've got another 10% whenever a golden age is going on.

 

[ashendashin]

Added to UA: Your military is 50% more effective at intimidating City-States, and you recieve 25% more yields from demanding tribute.

Sounds a bit boring, but it works I suppose. Not like the Zulus aren't strong enough as is.
I'm surprised you didn't go with JungleBucks' suggestion. It was similar to your original idea, but without the crazy CS shuffling that tribute would allow.

 

[Gazebo]

Still don't think another scientist on top of this is a good solution. Maybe adding another point of base science (so it starts at the same value as a normal library and grows from there) would be enough?
I mean this is essentially 10% bonus science in the capital 100% of the time and in the rest of the cities maybe 50% of the time, on top of that you've got another 10% whenever a golden age is going on.

I'd rather have the GA/WLTKD synergy than the extra specialist, so removing it seems fair.

Sounds a bit boring, but it works I suppose. Not like the Zulus aren't strong enough as is.
I'm surprised you didn't go with JungleBucks' suggestion. It was similar to your original idea, but without the crazy CS shuffling that tribute would allow.

I decided against influence because it pushes Shaka towards a diplo victory (when that's really not viable based on his other bonuses) and for ease of teaching the AI what's up. The AI already knows how to bully, and does it well, but an influence changer would require a bit more work than I want to do right now.

G

 

[CrazyG]

I am glad to see China getting some attention, but I'm not a huge fan of that paper maker change. She is so similar to korea, both have ranged uniques units with logistics, benefits to golden ages, and now they both have an extra scientist. Does there really need to be another science civ?

I really like the other changes though.

 

[Gazebo]

I am glad to see China getting some attention, but I'm not a huge fan of that paper maker change. She is so similar to korea, both have ranged uniques units with logistics, benefits to golden ages, and now they both have an extra scientist. Does there really need to be another science civ?

I really like the other changes though.

Well it is a unique library, so it is going to be a sciency building.

G

 

[CrazyG]

Well it is a unique library, so it is going to be a sciency building.

G

Aren't there plenty of uniques that do something very different than their base building, stuff like Jelling stones, ostrogs, burial tomb, satrap's court? Also many which do the base thing and add something really different (like the Skola). I certainly wouldn't suggest removing all science from the paper maker but its just so similar to the Seowon now

 

[Enginseer]

Aren't there plenty of uniques that do something very different than their base building, stuff like Jelling stones, ostrogs, burial tomb, satrap's court? Also many which do the base thing and add something really different (like the Skola). I certainly wouldn't suggest removing all science from the paper maker but its just so similar to the Seowon now

"+1 Paper"

 

[infidel88]

Reduced Epona yields (12, from 15)

• • Reduced Morrigan yields by 20%
  • Change Cernunnos to Gold from Forests (was Culture)

It's hard to balance it, but Cernunnos change will turn it into crap tier again. is needed there. somehow. Maybe add +1 on camps?

 

[ElliotS]

I appreciate the feedback taking place in this subforum over the past few days. I've had thoughts of my own, and I've compiled your most salient complaints/concerns, along with my own AI observations, into the following list of upcoming changes:

• Assyria:
  • Royal Library comes with Flood Tablet GW, expanded to 3 slots.
• France:
  • Turned starting Gold on Chateau into Golden Age Points (so is +3 GAP, +3 Food, +2 Culture)
• Sweden:
  • UA: GG bonuses apply to all GGs born (not just GGs earned naturally during war).
  • Carolean: gains 'Grenadier' promotion - when you advance from killing a unit, all newly-adjacent units immediately take 10 damage.
  • Added to UA: GGs 10% more effective.
• Zulu:
  • Removed GG effectiveness from UA.
  • Added to UA: Your military is 50% more effective at intimidating City-States, and you recieve 25% more yields from demanding tribute.
  • Ikanda: added +1 Culture
• China:
  • Paper Maker: now grants 10% Science in city during WLTKD (on top of 10% GA element) and added a second science specialist.
• Celts:
  • Reduced Epona yields (12, from 15)
  • Reduced Morrigan yields by 20%
  • Change Cernunnos to Gold from Forests (was Culture)

I like Assyria and Sweden's changes, and have no comment but a general feeling of joy towards the others. (Except the Celts nerf. I didn't play Celts since change so I wouldn't dream about disagreeing, but nerfs are no fun. :3 )

I'm disappointed that Rome is unchanged. I really think they could use some boost. Would it be too hard to allow all their melee units to build roads & forts? I think that would be really cool and unique and would make Rome feel more unique without being OP.

 

[Funak]

"+1 Paper"

G have said repeatedly that he doesn't really want any of the civilization uniques tied directly to City State Diplomacy mechanics, because he wants people to be able to play without it if they chose to (and having multiple different ones is annoying)

 

[Gazebo]

I like Assyria and Sweden's changes, and have no comment but a general feeling of joy towards the others. (Except the Celts nerf. I didn't play Celts since change so I wouldn't dream about disagreeing, but nerfs are no fun. :3 )

I'm disappointed that Rome is unchanged. I really think they could use some boost. Would it be too hard to allow all their melee units to build roads & forts? I think that would be really cool and unique and would make Rome feel more unique without being OP.

People calling for Rome buffs are crazy. Rome dominates nearly every game it is in.

Aren't there plenty of uniques that do something very different than their base building, stuff like Jelling stones, ostrogs, burial tomb, satrap's court? Also many which do the base thing and add something really different (like the Skola). I certainly wouldn't suggest removing all science from the paper maker but its just so similar to the Seowon now

Eh, perhaps, but ultimately a solid steroid is what China needs. They have the tools for synergies with their UA, so getting a building that benefits from growth and capitalizes on GA/WLTKD seems fine. It actually allows China to worry less about science (if they so choose) and move towards other yields in the mid-game.

G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

As someone who loves playing France (have a thing for France in real life) I'm not thrilled by the change, I see it as a nerf. I'd rather be in favour of keeping chateux as they are, and adding to the UA sth along the lines of "golden ages 25% longer" or "during golden ages, capital's culture also counts as GAPs" or "conquering a city yields GAPs" or "1 GAP on all tiles with resources/luxuries you have a monopoly on" or sth like that.

But the proposed changes by Gazebo aren't a huge nerf imho, so it'll be ok if they remain.

 

[peterw1987]

Anyone that suggests to buff Rome is insane.
Rome is very strong already, and in AI hand, their score will always in top 3.

I actually want Rome UA to be slightly nerfed. The retain building part maybe limited to not applied to building after industrial era or something.
Acquire additional territory also need to be removed.
Even with only that 15% bonus production part, the UA is already good enough.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't get why Legion is considered so good here? I think it sucks. +2CS compared to the Swordsman is nothing (less impact than one promotion as it has about 13% more CS than Sword), Cover promo is neat but by the time you get to it, you'll likely only be facing archers anyway with maybe a stray catapult or two. I can't afford to waste time building roads with them, too, and by the time I can - I have lighthouses and/or enough roads anyway. I consider it one of the worst UUs, in fact. I never fear them at all in AIs hands - my Swordsmen and Horses can handle them just fine, they're easy to stop. On the other hand, Colloseum is underrated. Once its Golden Age points per kill scale, just fighting a small war in the renaissance gives you a GA almost instantly. If you go to Ren/Ind, fight and you'll likely end up with a perma GA. GGs are not the best, but they matter - steal someone's territory, get a super-defensive tile, conquer the city with better healing on the tiles. Sure, Colisseum is not as good as Jelling Stones, Acropolis, Tabya, Dojo or Burial Tomb, but it definitely is a top 10 building and is miles above UBs like Basilica or Mission.

Musketeer is overrated too. It's all nice and fun until Industrial era hits and you go Autocracy. The policy that gives Lightning Warfare to your upgraded Muskeeters doesn't stack from what I remember, and there's no reason for me to go anything but Autocracy as France.

Conquistador is underrated, however. It's probably the best UU in the game so it compensates for Mission being meh. Not only does it have cities which are absolutely badass (free Harbour, free Mission), it wrecks all cities and units of its era as it has 20% more CS than the Knight. Awesome. Sure, no (good) promotions when you get him upgraded, but by that time he should've done enough to leave a permanent mark on your continent, some islands and maybe another continent. Who knows. If you don't consider it the best UU in the game, then... You might be right if you point at Samurai, especially if we count UB as a part of him (and we should).

I appreciate the feedback taking place in this subforum over the past few days. I've had thoughts of my own, and I've compiled your most salient complaints/concerns, along with my own AI observations, into the following list of upcoming changes:

• Assyria:
  • Royal Library comes with Flood Tablet GW, expanded to 3 slots.
• France:
  • Turned starting Gold on Chateau into Golden Age Points (so is +3 GAP, +3 Food, +2 Culture)
• Sweden:
  • UA: GG bonuses apply to all GGs born (not just GGs earned naturally during war).
  • Carolean: gains 'Grenadier' promotion - when you advance from killing a unit, all newly-adjacent units immediately take 10 damage.
  • Added to UA: GGs 10% more effective.
• Zulu:
  • Removed GG effectiveness from UA.
  • Added to UA: Your military is 50% more effective at intimidating City-States, and you recieve 25% more yields from demanding tribute.
  • Ikanda: added +1 Culture
• China:
  • Paper Maker: now grants 10% Science in city during WLTKD (on top of 10% GA element) and added a second science specialist.
• Celts:
  • Reduced Epona yields (12, from 15)
  • Reduced Morrigan yields by 20%
  • Change Cernunnos to Gold from Forests (was Culture)

Neato to all except for France. It's a very heavy nerf, GAP are definitely inferior to Gold. If you want to buff Chateau, give it +yield on some tech or a random free Baguette, Frog or Gerard Depardieu luxury, though adding something to the UA instead could also work.

China also gets too heavy a buff, second specialist is unneeded but I see it's already been removed.

Is Carolean getting that on top of everything else he has, like free March and Hakkapelita promotions? If so, he's going to be a very nice UU. Sweden is going to be pretty neat after the changes, I'll play them a bit for once as right now, they're not appealing at all. Also I'm really liking Zulu getting an UA change that still keeps them 100% war/military focused, that's nice. Some civ needs to be 100% about something.

 

[Legen]

About China, I had given the following suggestion:

On a note, I think it would make sense to switch Paper Maker's +10% during GAs with Korea's +25% during GAs. Korea has a very general purpose bonus for a science-focused civ, while China has a very specific bonus for a civ with a general purpose, great-people-fueled UA.

, which I think has more synergy with their UA than the extra science during WLTED. May need to adjust values, but should help more to make the civ flow more smoothly.

No particular opinion on the other changes, the Zulu one seems fitting. No more impact on the influence from other civs to that city state?

 

[Gokudo01]

I don t like the france changes because it's clearly a nerf. Ga points are nice but gold is clearly better. I think you should take another direction.

Now zulu new Ua part is kind of meh. You lose in battle efficiency to get some gimmick ability: I have no problem to bully right now so it will be reduce to a +25% reward from bullying on city state that you don't want to be friend on(i prefer befriend mecantile with warmonger than bully it)
Moreover this change has got no theme consistency: were zulu a great empire which were asking tribute from lesser nation ? Except those two changes I am happy with the new addition.

 

[Funak]

I don't get why Legion is considered so good here? I think it sucks. +2CS compared to the Swordsman is nothing (less impact than one promotion as it has about 13% more CS than Sword), Cover promo is neat but by the time you get to it, you'll likely only be facing archers anyway with maybe a stray catapult or two. I can't afford to waste time building roads with them, too, and by the time I can - I have lighthouses and/or enough roads anyway. I consider it one of the worst UUs, in fact. I never fear them at all in AIs hands - my Swordsmen and Horses can handle them just fine, they're easy to stop. On the other hand, Colloseum is underrated. Once its Golden Age points per kill scale, just fighting a small war in the renaissance gives you a GA almost instantly. If you go to Ren/Ind, fight and you'll likely end up with a perma GA. GGs are not the best, but they matter - steal someone's territory, get a super-defensive tile, conquer the city with better healing on the tiles. Sure, Colisseum is not as good as Jelling Stones, Acropolis, Tabya, Dojo or Burial Tomb, but it definitely is a top 10 building and is miles above UBs like Basilica or Mission.

Musketeer is overrated too. It's all nice and fun until Industrial era hits and you go Autocracy. The policy that gives Lightning Warfare to your upgraded Muskeeters doesn't stack from what I remember, and there's no reason for me to go anything but Autocracy as France.

Conquistador is underrated, however. It's probably the best UU in the game so it compensates for Mission being meh. Not only does it have cities which are absolutely badass (free Harbour, free Mission), it wrecks all cities and units of its era as it has 20% more CS than the Knight. Awesome. Sure, no (good) promotions when you get him upgraded, but by that time he should've done enough to leave a permanent mark on your continent, some islands and maybe another continent. Who knows. If you don't consider it the best UU in the game, then... You might be right if you point at Samurai, especially if we count UB as a part of him (and we should).

Yes, I agree that the Musketeer is pretty random once you get into Autocracy, but honestly, you don't have to go into autocracy and even if you do, ideologies and musketeers are quite far apart. Also yes they don't stack, it's the exact same promotion on them.


Conquistadors are fairly insane yes, but I mainly play on pangaea type maps (which is why both the crazy insane boats are still considered middle, despite completely blowing islandmaps apart) and for that reason I don't really value the Conquistador settle-ability that highly (as it is still unusable on the same continent, right?). Other than that the Conquistador is still a great fighting-unit, it's like several layers stronger than the Cataphract, having the same CS, higher movement, better promotions and the ability to sometimes settle an island on top of it.



As far as the Chateau thing goes, I really don't like it either, but I disagree with people claiming that GAP are clearly either worthless or not comparable to gold or whatever. GAP isn't bad by any means, and I don't think that overall this would actually play out as a nerf to France, but I just don't think GAP should be that common of a resource on tile-improvements and I don't think France really needs that kind of GA synergy (there are plenty of other ways to get GAs, policy-choices or religious choices and so on)

 

[CrazyG]

Eh, perhaps, but ultimately a solid steroid is what China needs. They have the tools for synergies with their UA, so getting a building that benefits from growth and capitalizes on GA/WLTKD seems fine. It actually allows China to worry less about science (if they so choose) and move towards other yields in the mid-game.

I feel very confident in saying that the absolute last thing China needs is more mid-late game bonuses or golden age synergy. They need early game stability and something to differentiate from Korea. Give them an early game steroid or adjust the UA which is misleadingly weak

 

[JungleBucks]

I just realized I've NEVER put the Iroquois in my ranking list. Weird. Anyways, I added them in a few pages back but it's no big deal or anything. I don't really have much to say on them.

 

[Strigvir]

Iroquois are maybe okay, but the amount of tiles they can work with decreases drastically as the game goes on, which detracts from the fun factor a lot.
At least Incas keep their Hills throughout the game.