General Leader Discussion

[Funak]

Iroquois are maybe okay, but the amount of tiles they can work with decreases drastically as the game goes on, which detracts from the fun factor a lot.
At least Incas keep their Hills throughout the game.

Also worth mentioning that their +1 production per forest is a lot weaker than the Celtic forest/jungle-pantheon, which feels weird to me. Not exactly sure if one could claim that they are a straight up worse civ, but it sure feels like the Celts does their own specialty better than they do.

 

[tu_79]

Also worth mentioning that their +1 production per forest is a lot weaker than the Celtic forest/jungle-pantheon, which feels weird to me. Not exactly sure if one could claim that they are a straight up worse civ, but it sure feels like the Celts does their own specialty better than they do.

Did you include the normal forest pantheon in the comparison? I know the pantheon is not assured for Iroquois, but even so.

 

[Funak]

Did you include the normal forest pantheon in the comparison? I know the pantheon is not assured for Iroquois, but even so.

Not really, but adding another 0.5 culture per worked forest isn't really changing anything.

 

[Starrynite120]

Not really, but adding another 0.5 culture per worked forest isn't really changing anything.

I'm not sure you can claim that. So Celts would get 1f 1c from forest. Iroquois get 1p 0.5 c from forest if they take that pantheon. That's almost equivalent. Its also worth mentioning the Celts won't always have that bonus, whereas the Iroquois will, so you can't really do a direct comparison.

I'd also to to input that changing the culture to gold in the Celtic forest pantheon seems a really bad way to go. It goes from being a pantheon I would be very tempted to take to one I wouldn't even consider.

 

[Funak]

I'm not sure you can claim that. So Celts would get 1f 1c from forest. Iroquois get 1p 0.5 c from forest if they take that pantheon. That's almost equivalent. Its also worth mentioning the Celts won't always have that bonus, whereas the Iroquois will, so you can't really do a direct comparison.

I'd also to to input that changing the culture to gold in the Celtic forest pantheon seems a really bad way to go. It goes from being a pantheon I would be very tempted to take to one I wouldn't even consider.

What I'm saying is that the Celts have flexibility while the Iroquois is always stuck with the same thing, and even though that, the Celts alternative is slightly stronger.

 

[Starrynite120]

What I'm saying is that the Celts have flexibility while the Iroquois is always stuck with the same thing, and even though that, the Celts alternative is slightly stronger.

True, it is slightly stronger, which is a bit odd. The Iroquois UA and UU benefits from forest as well though, and despite the forest overall being slightly worse it is stronger in production. Overall I'd say the Iroquois still can use forests better than the Celts.

 

[Funak]

True, it is slightly stronger, which is a bit odd. The Iroquois UA and UU benefits from forest as well though, and despite the forest overall being slightly worse it is stronger in production. Overall I'd say the Iroquois still can use forests better than the Celts.

Sure, but Celts can almost use it as well, and they have their own unique building as well as a guaranteed religion on top of that.

 

[Starrynite120]

Sure, but Celts can almost use it as well, and they have their own unique building as well as a guaranteed religion on top of that.

Yeah true. Iroquois could probably use a buff, or the Celts pantheon could be changed. Taking away the culture though makes it rarely desirable, so I don't think a change should happen in that way.

 

[tu_79]

Yeah true. Iroquois could probably use a buff, or the Celts pantheon could be changed. Taking away the culture though makes it rarely desirable, so I don't think a change should happen in that way.

Probably the former. Iroquois are a bit of a threat early on, and then only annoying if you want to conquer them.

 

[Starrynite120]

Probably the former. Iroquois are a bit of a threat early on, and then only annoying if you want to conquer them.

That does seem to be true in my experience. They've been a real pain for me sometimes in the early game, but then they become forgettable.

 

[Legen]

Not really, but adding another 0.5 culture per worked forest isn't really changing anything.

The Renewal pantheon also boosts herbalist (a.k.a. the Longhouse), so it seems fair to me. For a unique + pantheon, both civs seem to be getting roughly equivalent benefits.

 

[Starrynite120]

The Renewal pantheon also boosts herbalist (a.k.a. the Longhouse), so it seems fair to me. For a unique + pantheon, both civs seem to be getting roughly equivalent benefits.

I think his point is that part of the UA for the Celts is stronger than the UB for the Iroquois. That's clearly not right. It does make the Celts look like clearly a better choice of civ every time.

 

[CrazyG]

I also think the Celts sort of outclass the Iroqois, just because they won't get burned on a lower forest start, they can just pick something else. To be balanced the celts need to be a little worse than whoever has the ability they choose.

With that said, the movement bonus for the Iroquois can't be over looked, have you tried fighting those guys in forest near a natural wonder?

 

[Funak]

The Renewal pantheon also boosts herbalist (a.k.a. the Longhouse), so it seems fair to me. For a unique + pantheon, both civs seem to be getting roughly equivalent benefits.

Celts also gets +3 faith for every city, with no building-requirement. I'm not saying the iroquois can't compete with the celts if the stars align properly, I'm saying it shouldn't be anywhere near as close as it is.

 

[tu_79]

Celts also gets +3 faith for every city, with no building-requirement. I'm not saying the iroquois can't compete with the celts if the stars align properly, I'm saying it shouldn't be anywhere near as close as it is.

Celts can't connect cities with just forest tiles. No immediate city connections.

 

[Legen]

Celts also gets +3 faith for every city, with no building-requirement. I'm not saying the iroquois can't compete with the celts if the stars align properly, I'm saying it shouldn't be anywhere near as close as it is.

If you're adding the +3 from the celtic UA, you can also add the +1 and the lower 1 maintenance from the Longhouse, compared to the Herbalist.

On a note, the Longhouse adds food and production to Plantations, while the Herbalist only adds production.

 

[Starrynite120]

Celts can't connect cities with just forest tiles. No immediate city connections.

Not exactly a strong bonus, and highly situational.

 

[Starrynite120]

If you're adding the +3 from the celtic UA, you can also add the +1 and the lower 1 maintenance from the Longhouse, compared to the Herbalist.

On a note, the Longhouse adds food and production to Plantations, while the Herbalist only adds production.

None of this discussion has included the Celts UB. With that in mind, the Celts are clearly superior.

 

[Funak]

None of this discussion has included the Celts UB. With that in mind, the Celts are clearly superior.

I did actually mention that a while back, and yes, even with the Celtic UB being kinda weird it clearly puts them ahead of the iroquois.

 

[tu_79]

So, in the end we have the same question. Are Iroquois underperformers?