General tips for a science victory?

[AquiIae]

Hey all, I'm looking for some clarifications on Science victories. Most of my science victories have been fairly slow-going, mostly because I couldn't get many RAs, and my bpts couldn't cut it.

I've got a few questions I hope you guys can answer:

1. How much should I expand? I've been doing the 4-cities Tradition start and it's been working out well, but I find it delays the NC quite a bit. Should I stay at 1 or 2 cities until the NC is built, or just expand before it?

2. When should I begin allocating specialists to the University? It kind of stunts food and production for the city, so I'm wondering whether I should allocate them just after the university is built, or after the city reaches a certain size.

3. Should I declare war and/or wipe out neighbouring civs, or just refrain from taking cities to avoid the diplo hit? On a similar note, how do I get more Declarations of Friendship from AIs?

4. Which are the wonders I should aim for? I know Great Library (on lower difficulties), National College, Porcelain Tower and Hubble are the main ones. Should I go for the Leaning Tower (and if I do, which GP should I select?)

That's about it I think, if you guys have any other general tips do share them. I'm quite comfortable on Emperor and sometimes Immortal, and I normally go for Domination victories (a bit too often in retrospect xD) so I want to learn a little more about the other victory conditions.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Hi and welcome to CFC!

1. How much does expansion delay NC? Usually you should be able to finish it rather comfortably by 90-95 at most. You can, of course, start with two cities and then expand to 4 after NC, but I think for science victory 4 cities NC is much stronger. Because of 2.

2. The goal is to have cities that are big enough to run specialists and not stagnate. Which means you should try to grow them at least to size 6-7 by the time Education is researched and then staff immediately.

3. There are many tips on how make the AI friendlier, other posters will probably expand. I'd recommend reading Sadato OCC guide. He has a long list in his thread. Warmongering/peacemongering depends on your personal preference i.e. you'd rather rely heavily on RA's or sheer population. One thing is certain: do not get involved in a war if you're not sure you can win it.

4. Food wonders (ToA, HG) help. Petra is always awesome. But all wonders except for national ones totally depend on difficulty level. While you can get pretty much all of them on emperor-, on immortal/deity you can say goodbye to most. Pisa is a nice wonder to have. It's worth trying. If you're sure you can hard build PT, you can pick GS and plant one more academy. If you're in danger of loosing PT, take GE and rush it.

Another tip, and you probably know it - bribe AI's to DoW each other. Wars slow them down science-wise.

 

[Mesix]

Here is my opinion on your questions:

1. I often expand to 3-4 cities before building the NC. As long as you have enough to buy a Library in your newly founded city, it shouldn't slow you down too much. I might even expand to as many as 6 cities for a science victory depending on game conditions.

2. I run scientists as soon as the buildings are available. I try to save enough to purchase the key buildings (University, Public School, Research Lab) in at least 2 cities on the same turn the tech is researched. I buy these buildings in low cities and build them in high cities.

3. I try often puppet my closest neighbors after expanding to 4 cities. I try to annoy them enough to get them to DOW me so that I do not get such a negative penalty with the other AIs. I also take only their capital and perhaps 1-2 other key cities (higher population and closer to my borders are factors in deciding for me) before taking their gold and luxuries in a peace settlement. Leaving them in the game prevents the negative penalties with other AIs too.

4. Like The Pilgrim said, wonders which provide like the TOA and HG are very good. I also like to get wonders which increase so that I can buy 3-4 GS and 1 GE (to rush Hubble) in the late game. I try to group my wonders in cities to maximize the great people they generate (i.e. GL, Oracle, and PT all provide GS points so I build them in the same city). The city with the GS wonders will get my NE in a Science game. In culture games, I build the NE in the city with GA wonders. In all other games I build the NE in the city with GE wonders.

Also try to settle your 4 cities on a river (or at least a lake) so that you can build a Garden in all 4. you might get 1-2 extra GS this way. Settle as many cities next to a mountain (especially your NC city) as possible to get the extra benefit from an Observatory. Early GS should be settled as Academies near your NC city and later GS should be saved to bulb techs as the end of the game.

 

[joncnunn]

Hey all, I'm looking for some clarifications on Science victories. Most of my science victories have been fairly slow-going, mostly because I couldn't get many RAs, and my bpts couldn't cut it.

I've got a few questions I hope you guys can answer:

1. How much should I expand? I've been doing the 4-cities Tradition start and it's been working out well, but I find it delays the NC quite a bit. Should I stay at 1 or 2 cities until the NC is built, or just expand before it?

2. When should I begin allocating specialists to the University? It kind of stunts food and production for the city, so I'm wondering whether I should allocate them just after the university is built, or after the city reaches a certain size.

3. Should I declare war and/or wipe out neighbouring civs, or just refrain from taking cities to avoid the diplo hit? On a similar note, how do I get more Declarations of Friendship from AIs?

4. Which are the wonders I should aim for? I know Great Library (on lower difficulties), National College, Porcelain Tower and Hubble are the main ones. Should I go for the Leaning Tower (and if I do, which GP should I select?)

That's about it I think, if you guys have any other general tips do share them. I'm quite comfortable on Emperor and sometimes Immortal, and I normally go for Domination victories (a bit too often in retrospect xD) so I want to learn a little more about the other victory conditions.

#1 I normally do the 2 city NC (cash rush library in second city); cash rush the settler when its almost done, start moving it to the site and found shortly after it finishes. This allows the NC to be built much earlier. If your instead going Great Library, that normally calls for the 1 city NC (again cash rush the settler).
And I've also started on maps with a lot of water resources (God of the Sea Chosen) in which since it takes a bit to initially set up, I also 1 city NC with a regular library.

#2 I tend to fill all scientist slots opened by Universities immediately.

#3 On Emperor & Immortal level even if you want to conquer your neighbor, there's no need to DOW him; he'll DOW you soon enough. (However, if you share embassies, the AI may send a settler your way which would be worth DOWing to enslave his settler into a worker.)

For DOFs, you need to get a triangle set staggered renewal terms. But your closest neighbor is generally NOT a good civ to DOF (unless you want to be backstabbed)

#4 National College is the most important wonder.
Yes, the Leaning Tower is safe to manually build even on Immortal; I like choosing a GE to use for PT. (2 wonders for the price of 1 plus wonder-denial to AI)
There's also a long list of wonders in which if you have a GE is worth building; but isn't worth attempting to hand build on Immortal due to poor chance of success and/or diverting away from the best tech path. Along with using hammers that could have been used for buildings / military units.

 

[kimadactyl]

Can you give a rough idea what turns you're getting up universities/schools/research facilities? And what turn you'll get Hubble and Apollo up ideally? I feel like I've got up to NC down pretty well now but drop off the more the game goes on? Not quite sure where the inefficiency is coming.

Is more food better than trading posts giving science? How big a pop should I be looking at to staff the research lab/school?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Can you give a rough idea what turns you're getting up universities/schools/research facilities? And what turn you'll get Hubble and Apollo up ideally? I feel like I've got up to NC down pretty well now but drop off the more the game goes on? Not quite sure where the inefficiency is coming.

Is more food better than trading posts giving science? How big a pop should I be looking at to staff the research lab/school?

Reasonable scenario:

Education <100
Rationalism <110
Scientific Theory <140
Plastics <170
Apollo + Hubble <200
Launch <230

Not achievable on every map, yet on some maps can be improved significantly.

I'm not experienced enough with science oriented civs like Babylon and Korea. But with Babylon you can shave off 15-20 turns probably. Maya will reach Education/Rationalism earlier as well due to early academy, although Long Count affects GS generation so I don't know what that means in the long run.

 

[budweiser]

A big factor is planning ahead and getting enough cities. This means you need happiness. Later in game 4 cities with all the science buildings and all the scientist slots filled will get you about 1000BPT but you need more than that.

 

[kimadactyl]

A big factor is planning ahead and getting enough cities. This means you need happiness. Later in game 4 cities with all the science buildings and all the scientist slots filled will get you about 1000BPT but you need more than that.

See yeah 1000bpt sounds like what I can get super late - but Uberswank managed to launch the ship with 765 bpt in the other thread which made me think it's more about increasing it at the right time rather than overall

Here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12259593&postcount=295

Any thoughts on farm spam for the extra pop for specialists vs trading post spam for the extra tile-based science?

 

[budweiser]

See yeah 1000bpt sounds like what I can get super late - but Uberswank managed to launch the ship with 765 bpt in the other thread which made me think it's more about increasing it at the right time rather than overall

Here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12259593&postcount=295

Any thoughts on farm spam for the extra pop for specialists vs trading post spam for the extra tile-based science?

I havent looked at the thread, but if you want a faster time with less beakers, then you need more RA's. My fastest on Diety was 237 using OCC and many RAs.

 

[The Pilgrim]

See yeah 1000bpt sounds like what I can get super late - but Uberswank managed to launch the ship with 765 bpt in the other thread which made me think it's more about increasing it at the right time rather than overall

Here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12259593&postcount=295

Any thoughts on farm spam for the extra pop for specialists vs trading post spam for the extra tile-based science?

Sorry about missing the TP question. That's what happens when I'm trying to do million and one things at the same time. Food first, TP's second. TP jungle tiles (and puppets, of course), farm the rest.
Uberswank's game is OCC, you have to use as many RA's as you can, because raw beakers can't match bpt of multiple cities empire. Even if you have huge city with many academies and specialists, 4 cities, if treated properly, will generate more. In addition this SS is taken after victory, I assume his bpt was higher before he switched to production focus to speed up the parts.

 

[AquiIae]

Thanks for the advice! I finished an Emperor game as Korea recently, and I think I did pretty well (281 turns). I went for 2 cities NC at first, then expanded to 4. I was teching pretty fine, but had to wait a long while for the parts because my capital didn't have that much production to get it done quick. Some questions,

Should you rush buy the science buildings instead of building them from scratch? It took a lot of time for the other cities to get the later buildings up, especially the Research Lab and Public School. Should I focus on growth anyway or switch to production for these two? I don't remember rush-buying many buildings, I spent most of my money on RAs.

Should I actively build more culture buildings after Renaissance? I didn't have enough culture to get the Rationalism finisher in time, and spent it on 2x Future Tech because I had researched everything at that point xD

Should I build Oxford University, and which tech should I aim to bulb with it? With 4 cities I usually get Universities up and running in all of them pretty late, and I could have got Astronomy by then, and I find it hard to time it to bulb Plastics because of RAs that are running.

Also, I found it difficult to fit in the Garden and the Heroic Epic into my production schedules, mostly because I have my hands full building science / happiness / production buildings. Should I rush-buy / prioritise building these?

 

[Mesix]

It sounds like your timing is off in the late game. If you are getting an early launch date, then you should not be reaching Future Tech. What policies are you getting? I generally go full Tradition (sometimes Liberty instead depending on map conditions), then the left side of Rationalism, then Order and +25% from Factories, then finish Rationalism. I generally finish Rationalism in time to take Rocketry and Satellites from the finisher. Then I queue up all of the necessary techs for SS components and start burning GS. I generally have 2-3 GS saved, buy 2-3 more with and get 2 more free from Hubble. That is 7-8 GS which should be enough to bulb most of the necessary techs. I build Apollo in my highest city and buy a GE with to rush Hubble.

In answer to your questions:

Should you rush buy the science buildings instead of building them from scratch? It took a lot of time for the other cities to get the later buildings up, especially the Research Lab and Public School. Should I focus on growth anyway or switch to production for these two? I don't remember rush-buying many buildings, I spent most of my money on RAs.

I rush buy science buildings as soon as they become available. I also staff the scientist specialists immediately. I often don't have enough to buy four buildings. If I can only buy 2, I will buy them in the lower cities and hard build them in the faster cities. I generally use for buying buildings before RA. I only spend on RA and CS if I have a good surplus and the opportunity presents itself.

Should I actively build more culture buildings after Renaissance? I didn't have enough culture to get the Rationalism finisher in time, and spent it on 2x Future Tech because I had researched everything at that point xD

I tend to build culture buildings after the necessary science and production buildings are in place. It is important to get the policies I listed above. Anything extra (especially pre Renaissance) is gravy. If you are teching fast enough, you should be able to finish one policy tree (probably Tradition) and open Rationalism as the Renaissance opens (ca turn 100-110 on standard speed). You might be able to finish the Oracle on the turn you enter the Renaissance to open Rationalism immediately followed shortly after by the first policy in the Rationalism tree.

Should I build Oxford University, and which tech should I aim to bulb with it? With 4 cities I usually get Universities up and running in all of them pretty late, and I could have got Astronomy by then, and I find it hard to time it to bulb Plastics because of RAs that are running.

I generally use OU on Astronomy, Scientific Theory, or Plastics (in that order). Astronomy opens the Renaissance, and if I have a lot of mountains then Observatories can make a big impact. It is often difficult to get OU up this fast after Education unless there is enough to rush buy Universities. Scientific Theory and Plastics are the next targets of opportunity to speed up the availability of key producing buildings.

Also, I found it difficult to fit in the Garden and the Heroic Epic into my production schedules, mostly because I have my hands full building science / happiness / production buildings. Should I rush-buy / prioritise building these?

Heroic Epic (bonus XP and promotion for units) is not very important. Perhaps you meant the National Epic (faster great people). When going Tradition, this should be easy to get in a high city because your first 4 cities will have the requisite Monument for free. The Garden can be helpful as well, but I generally get a free Garden from building Hanging Gardens wonder (which tremendously improves growth and helps to feed those scientists).

I hope these comments are helpful.

 

[sufficiency]

Unless I have a very good starting location, I find Liberty opener actually a bit better for SV... but maybe that's just me.

It's pretty safe to go for SV off 7~8 reasonably good cities on Deity. With that many cities you will be able to afford to buy more GS and GE with faith.

 

[AquiIae]

I went full Tradition and Rationalism, but I didn't have enough culture to finish Rationalism on time, and I had a few extra GS'es from Hubble that came rather late and allowed me to bulb all the lategame techs. I guess my main problem was that my capital didn't have enough production and took too long to build all the necessary shuttle components.

 

[Mesix]

Are you building SS components in all of your cities, or only your capital? Are you settling early GS as Academies near your NC (and hopefully Observatory too) city or are you saving them all to bulb at the end?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Thanks for the advice! I finished an Emperor game as Korea recently, and I think I did pretty well (281 turns). I went for 2 cities NC at first, then expanded to 4. I was teching pretty fine, but had to wait a long while for the parts because my capital didn't have that much production to get it done quick. Some questions

Are you talking about OCC? If not, build SS parts simultaneously in several cities. Sell unnecessary buildings and gpt to rush buy SS factories.

Should you rush buy the science buildings instead of building them from scratch? It took a lot of time for the other cities to get the later buildings up, especially the Research Lab and Public School. Should I focus on growth anyway or switch to production for these two? I don't remember rush-buying many buildings, I spent most of my money on RAs.

It's a constant dilemma when your gold is limited. Ideally I'd like to rush buy in low production cities and capital and hard build in cities with high production. So I try to plan ahead and accumulate as much cash as I can. Sell gpt and oversell luxes, if I can afford it. If that's not enough, but I know in couple of turns I'll be able to renew deals, I rush buy in capital and delay secondary cities to after another round of sales. If there is no way to afford rush buying in capital and some of the low production cities, capital will have to hard build.

Should I actively build more culture buildings after Renaissance? I didn't have enough culture to get the Rationalism finisher in time, and spent it on 2x Future Tech because I had researched everything at that point xD

Yes. What did you spend culture on if you haven't managed to finish Rationalism in time?

Should I build Oxford University, and which tech should I aim to bulb with it? With 4 cities I usually get Universities up and running in all of them pretty late, and I could have got Astronomy by then, and I find it hard to time it to bulb Plastics because of RAs that are running.

Of course you should build Oxford. What to bulb with it, it's a more complicated question. Depends on your position in tech tree, I guess. If I take Plastics with RA, I usually bulb Satellites. Especially on deity, when on par with AI, this is a good way to secure (sort of) the Hubble. Bulbing Plastics if you need to hard-tech it, also isn't bad. I know in OCC people often bulb Astronomy, but I had better results with bulbing late era techs.

Also, I found it difficult to fit in the Garden and the Heroic Epic into my production schedules, mostly because I have my hands full building science / happiness / production buildings. Should I rush-buy / prioritise building these?

Not in my opinion. National epic and gardens are nice to have, but as you say, you have your hands full even without them. Not even sure they'll grant you additional GS. Definitely not a garden in every city. As Mesix said, if you managed to get HG, you probably have all gardens you'll ever need.

 

[AquiIae]

I was building most parts in my capital, and one of them in my other cities since my capital had Hubble. But yeah, I didn't really think of selling gpt / science buildings to rush buy the SS Factory, probably could have cut down a bit in that area.

I settled most of my GS'es early and used them to bulb after Plastics. I didn't spend culture on anything other than Tradition and Rationalism, just that my culture production was really low because I built Amphitheatres and the like really late.

 

[Moriarte]

The shortest route to Science vic. would look something like this:

Settle 3-4 own cities + NC asap. Finish tradition/liberty fast and open Patronage + Aesthetics with the help of the Oracle. Scout the world and pledge to protect every CS you meet. The fastest path to scientific vic. is a path of war. So, get yourself an army: 5-6 ranged, 3-4 melee. Depends on difficulty level. Conquer 4+ more cities and annexe them as soon as you can.

Buy scientific buildings everywhere as soon as you unlock relevant techs. After Aesthetics you should visit 3 policies in Rationalism and 2 in Order (science factories). Lastly, finish Rationalism. Oxford is good for either Plastics or the most expensive tech. That depends on how many scientists you're planning to bulb.

By the way, a scientific GOTM (#57) started yesterday, where everyone is playing the same map and share their experiences. Might be interesting for you.

 

[Keepitsimple]

I have never understood how you can complete full tradition, 2 in patronage, 2 in order and full rationalism. Sometimes when I manage to go full tradition into full rationalism I will still bulb the latest military techs with rationalism (and win domination/science shortly after).

 

[Moriarte]

The magic of Aesthetics. Having 100+ culture per turn, 60+ faith per turn [by turn] 170-180 is pretty normal if you pick that policy. So last policies won't cost you much. Provided, of course, you can scout well.