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Generic Non-strategy

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Aaroc, Apr 8, 2011.

  1. Aaroc

    Aaroc Warlord

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    I find a lot of posts dealing with strategy at higher difficulties, detailing using this certain way of teching or that certain way of teching and such, but I find that I use everything available to me for teching and playing the game. Especially when my plans don't go as planned. As a side note, I should say that I've been working through the difficulties, currently on Prince (or 4, or normal).

    A lot of strategies seem to bank on building this thing or that thing and getting this tech or that tech at this time or that time and seem to be very specific in terms of how to do things. I find that in most of my games, even if I go in with a certain strategy in mind, I end up having to change my plans and take different policies and different tech paths because of what the map throws at me.

    I tend to do everything while playing. In a lot of the strategies I'll see something along the lines of "you don't need X because you have Y" but I'm of the mind that more is more, so In a culture game, for example, I'll ally with cultural CSs and, if they have happy resources I don't have, every other type of CS. And I'll build all the happiness and cultural buildings I can. I'll even build all the production and gold buildings I can because those will help the culture/happiness buildings come in faster and the money for CS relations going strong.

    In one of my cultural wins, for example, I was getting a new policy every two or three turns while building the utopia project because I had managed to nab so many sources of culture ( and my best production city wasn't that great. It took about 20 turns to build the project).

    In a science victory I recently pursued with Babylon, the happiness resources on my continent (and apparently the entire map) were pretty scarce, so instead of an early rex, I settled my GS from Writing and built the NC in my capitol before expanding horizontally. For happiness, I turned to the CSs that I could, and got a good deal of culture from that, so I ended up going into Patronage and then Rationalism for my science output, as well as taking up as many RAs as I could on the way. (I didn't capitalize on Babylon's UA as much as I should have, but I had a fairly food poor start, being mostly in forested plains). Even though I ended up with a fairly expansive kingdom, a lot of it was puppeted (and made good use of the +1 Science to TP policy). And I realized I didn't have quite so many good production cities as I had hoped, so each SS piece took about ten turns to make (And I didn't have Uranium or deserts, so no access to solar or nuclear power plants). I ended up filling in the rest of the tech tree, and even picking up two or three (or more) Future Techs before finishing my space ship.

    In any event, basically what this whole post is about is this: Are the strategies discussed in a lot for these threads really necessary for wins on the higher difficulties or am I doomed for failure if I continue using my usual.. uh.. "strategies"
     
  2. wcbarney

    wcbarney Know-it-all

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    You're doomed for failure!:devil::wallbash::hammer2:

    If you wanna win at any of the "challenging" levels, then you gotta follow the rules that the experts post on this forum.;) Or else!:p
     
  3. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Pô Chi Min

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    Pretty agre with wcbarney. For king or lower, you can make a big melting pot of everything and still win somewhere. But when you are able to win more often than you think on high levels, you can play with different strats(of your own) because you learned how to cheat the AI(and the tech tree).
     
  4. pickle

    pickle Lord of the Preserves

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    you can get away with just muddling through on king too, my problem is that I want to play like that rather than exploit the flaws in the ai but stepping up to emperor I tend to fall too far behind and get mass dow for my 'warmongering' when I don't start the wars it's just that they percieve me as weaker so they attack and I'm too far behind to win the war decisively but I can hold them off.
    and on king I just play around a bit and all is fun and a bit of a challenge until someone goes to war with me and I crush them, then I get that little bit ahead and they can't do anything about my eventual victory.

    the game needs something to make it possible for the runaway civ to collapse, then when I am that runaway civ I will still have a challenge and when I'm not the situation won't seem as hopeless
     
  5. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    I am currently playing on King/Emperor, and I am not a hard "exploiter" in the slightest. About the only thing I do regularly is tech-blocking for RAs. I rarely sell luxuries down to nothing (i.e., I only sell/trade my surplus) and I don't sell open borders. Of course, at my difficulty level, the AI is not swimming in cash and so those "exploits" are harder to actually put to use, especially if you want the AI to have enough money to actually do a RA with you.

    As in previous interations of Civ, Civ V requires you to focus more the higher you go in difficulty. If you want to be a warmonger, for instance, it is best at higher difficulty levels to plan and execute that gameplan from fairly early on, though of course some starts and situations will allow for some seat-of-the-pants playing.

    Personally, I suspect I will probably stay around Emperor for good.
     
  6. Aaroc

    Aaroc Warlord

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    Well, I still form a general gameplan. Like I'll start as a civ like Babylon and decide right off the mark that I'm going for Science, or play Gandhi with the general game plan of going for Culture, or something along those lines, but exactly how I go for those victories is dependent on the map more than anything else. Or, if the map doesn't really support my initial gameplan, I'll change my plan if I need to. (Re: want to REX, but have no happiness resources nearby, for example)

    ETA: But I don't take advantage of the 'exploits' like selling a resource and then DOWing to steal a worker or tech blocking for RAs (I'm not even sure what tech blocking is...)
     
  7. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

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    Move up the levels. At one level, you'll notice that you won't be able to win using your "generic" strategy. It will probably be emperor level. You will have to refine your strategy to move up, and you will likely spend time on some of these advanced threads. As you move up, you must focus more on teching since the AI gets huge bonuses that will force you to adjust your strategies. Diplomacy and the acquisition and use of gold will be another important factor.
     
  8. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    The map has a lot more influence on your game in the .217 patch, but I'd argue that the best approach is to look at the map, decide which available strategy best suits it given the civ you picked, and then execute the strategy.

    There are two major reasons that I think Babylon is the best civ as a result. Your tech path is always the same irrespective of your plan, and the extra GS gives you a ton of flexibility that other civs don't have. If you want to go early warmonger with Steel, you can do that well. If you want to hold off and steamroll the continent with quick Rifles, that will also work. If you have some elbow room, you can go horizontal and go for Space like no other civ. The extra GS makes you competitive on Culture, and the UA makes it very easy to pop out a late GS to push Cristo/Broadcast Tower with minimal impact on your Great Artist production. Diplo is the weakest condition, but that's only because Siam is so well suited to it.

    Siam is better for Culture but doesn't offer quite the same level of flexibility. You can play peacefully or aggressively, but there's only one warmonger path and it's not a great one if you have Bismarck, Alex or Darius next door. Siam is better for Diplo and Culture than Babylon, but not as good for Space.

    With most other civs you're committing to one or two win conditions when you select them, because their abilities (and lack thereof) tend to have more impact than the map. Since the best ways to warmonger or win peacefully tend to be fairly formulaic, the map determines the speed with which you finish, but not your best option overall.
     
  9. Smote

    Smote Emperor

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    Theres this big idea of "wasting hammers" which is what happens any time you build something that is not very helpful.

    Constantly asking myself the question "am I wasting hammers" helps me understand the reason why I am building every thing that I am building, and why it is better than any alternative.
     
  10. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    So true.

    Decide what you want to do, go all out to make it happen, and stay focused.
     
  11. PScirocco

    PScirocco Chieftain

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    Last game as Askia I was too focused on warring and ended up with 19 :mad: for 120 turns or so on marathon :lol:
     
  12. wcbarney

    wcbarney Know-it-all

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    Me too. I have won a few games at the Immortal level and a couple at the Diety level, but now I play every game at the Emperor level. This level is challenging enough for me, and I can "do my thing," which is warmongering, and win practically every game. I usually click off the diplomacy and science victory conditions, because they are boring to me, and I got tired of the AI building the UN and forcing me to win a diplo victory.:p
     
  13. neilkaz

    neilkaz King

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    If you're looking for a generic cookbook starting strat there, of course, is none that is optimal and all have to be situational based on the layout of your map, your civ, and difficulty level.

    However, I find the simple default strat as Babylon of beelining writing (pottery/writing) and slapping down that academy with the free GS and buying the library for 380G and building NC to be very strong no matter what at the Immortal level. Perhaps I settled a mining luxury or calendar lux or have an early worker and will make a slight tech detour but even then I may not get 300G from an AI that early at Immortal and will sell for lesser G + some GPT, noting I am also selling OB like a fiend. Anyhow, take out a loan if needed to get the 380G. Cost is 2 gpt for 45G now. Buying the library means that your NC comes online quicker and then your capitol can begin doing whatever it needs to continue your game.

    Now I have great early science and can proceed in what ever manner my scouting shows is best.

    By staying small early you can get a lot of SP's. Patronage down the left side to Scholasticism is extremely powerful with several allied CS (especially cultural CS to help feed you more SP's)

    Situation awareness is key! In my penultimate game, I spawned on a bulb in the west with Rammy north of me and having no where to expend but into me. Only one of us would survive that and it was me, and then I could begin to play for more science and gradually annex his cities and build a few more of my own to completely take over my area and tech down Rationalism to launch date. Small Pangaea can be warlike and Napoleon was nuking the same one of my cities nearly every turn from 265 til I launched turn 294. Fortunately, he couldn't get close enough to my capitol or main cities to cripple my rocket production.

    In the last game, I spawned on a SMALL bulb in the west and LOL, Oda was north of me. Quickly his third city was up next to my capitol and thankfully I managed to build my 2nd city on Iron (no one else had any yet) and my swords took two of his cities and longswords took Osaka, leaving me with an easy win for any victory condition since the other 4 AI's were far away and growing in hatred towards each other.

    I sold luxuries and strategic resources like a fiend and did my best to try to take money away from the AI's so there'd be fewer RA's between them (making the occasional RA myself) Money went into CS's and at one point around turn 140 I was allied with all 12 of them for a while until the Mongols captured two of them.

    Vastly ahead in tech and with two cities and three puppets, it was easy to cruise to a cultural victory. Diplo would've been faster, but I consider that to be rather lame. At some point, I'll replay from the saved game and go into Rationalism and annex the Japanese cities and make a few more of my own and see just how much tech I can then get with 10-12 CS techy allies and Rationalism enhanced specialists.

    One caution.. barbs just love to come and pillage that early academy ! If barbs are running around nearby you may want to have a unit that can deal with them close to home.

    .. neilkaz ..
     
  14. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Going Writing is automatic. The Academy isn't quite automatic; Marathon and Rifle Rush are the cases I can think of. I actually find the NC pretty dubious for Babylon on standard speed, as strange as that sounds. It makes more sense to fill it in right before Universities land. Since there is beaker overflow now, you don't lose a lot of time by delaying it, and you are able to get the early techs you need without the NC. Siam is the one civ where you really want to NC first every game, because doing that saves you the Library build everywhere.
     
  15. Aaroc

    Aaroc Warlord

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    Well, I decided to step it up to King in a game last night. Tiny, Pangaea, Washington.

    My neighbors were Spain and Mongolia, with China on the other end of the continent. There was a multitude of happy resources so I opted for an early REX, and did pretty well. Spain and Mongolia were easy to take out. I think Genghis Khan was off his game though. He only ever founded one city and started wonders-pamming. He didin't even build any improvement in his giant one-city radius.

    However, China had a ton of science, and entered the industrial era while I was taking out Mongolia with minutemen. She DOW'd me and killed every single one of my rifle-upgraded minutemen with her fighters. I did manage to stave off the rest of her attack though, because she had a few outdated units attacking me, which I picked off with my artillery who were on the backside of Karakorum, and she eventually bribed me for peace, so I started trying to step up my tech pace, but she built the Apollo Project while I was doing so. I misread it as the Manhattan Project, so I made a few mistakes there, trying to figure out if I could squeeze in a diplo victory before she started nuking me. What I should have done was beeling for nukes so I coudl take her cities down some, but that's what I get for misreading. Once I finally got my plan together and started building the manhattan project myself, she ended up finishing it a few turns before I did. I didn't have the production in my cities that I should have, and she handily beat me down in a second war, which involved a lot of nukes (really only in mongolia's former lands, but she took out most of my troops, plus she had a crapload of fighters and the great wall), and I really didn't think I had enough production, tech or money to scrape off any sort of win before she finished her spaceship.

    If only Khan had been more like his warmonger self, I probably could have had him soften her up a bit earlier in the game, but it just didn't work out that way. I suppose I could have stayed small for a bit to get my tech rate up (with a NC start before rexing, going primarily up the Tradition and Honor trees). I think I'm going to load up the initial autosave from that game and see how I can make things go differently. I find it really annoying that you can't start putting in Scientist Specialists until after you have Universities now.
     
  16. eltoddo

    eltoddo Chieftain

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    i think the best strategies for tech'ing can be applied to any map. i always do either 1 of the following now for tech:

    -constant research agreement blocking.

    or

    -ally all maritime and culture city states and rush for scholatism

    i think these things matter so much more than population or buildings or anything.
     
  17. truefrequencie

    truefrequencie Chieftain

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    In my opinion, any mix of strategies up to emperor will work mainly because the tech pace is very manageable even without any research agreements (or blocking) and the AI doesn't spam units. When you hit immortal and above, properly managing units, specialists, research agreements and blocking all become mandatory if you want to win on those levels.

    Can you provide info at around what turn the Manhattan Project was completed, etc, because it makes a big difference. If you're still waring while aiming at a domination victory passed ~T300, then your pace is too slow.
     
  18. Aaroc

    Aaroc Warlord

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    My last autosave is turn 340, so I'm pretty sure both our manhattan projects come in around turn 300.

    Hrm.. I just had a thought. If I want to capitalize on minutemen, (and I know I don't have a lot of iron on this map. At least not near my starting poisition) then playing as america, I should probably go for a NC start, stay somewhat small horizontally and focus on research at least until education, build universities, while growing my few (maybe four or five?) cities as big as possible, then switch my focus to production and/or gold as I apporach gunpowder so that I can quickly pump out a bunch of unit. Maybe even stalling the first war until I've gotten my minutemen upgraded to rifles (in case my oponnents have longswordsmen)

    Thinking about it though... minutemen aren't really that great of a UU to capitalize on are they? Of course, if upgraded to MI, they'd be able to cover good ground without being stopped by rivers or other terrain stuff.

    Or maybe America just isn't the best civ to be trying a new difficulty level with.
     
  19. truefrequencie

    truefrequencie Chieftain

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    America's UU isn't that great, if you want to go for a domination win, try Aztecs (upgraded Jaguars), China (Chu-Ko-Nu), or early iron rush using Rome (Legions/Ballista). UU's that come early are better for domination wins, because you can take advantage of them early and upgrade them as better technologies are discovered. Also units that upgraded to UU are especially cost and build effective.

    Edit: Also Mongolia with Keshik/Khan combo.
     
  20. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    America's best bonuses are in the early game via great scouting and city placement flexibility via cheap tile purchases. The units are fun but not game-changing.

    To take advantage of Manifest Destiny, I suggest building two scouts right away and taking all of the Liberty Tree. Do what you need to do to get more culture, because all of the Liberty polices (yes, even Republic) are great when you are doing a major land grab, and then you will need even more policies later to deal with your post-expansion happiness issues.

    And don't stop at your neighbors. Get Compass and jump on some islands. Take every scrap of happiness you can from your REX.

    When you hit the wall on happiness (and you will, hard), just make sure you can do what you have to do (happy buildings, trades) to rectify the situation. Piety, Patronage, and Commerce all have various ways of helping with unhappiness too.
     

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