Genetically engineered soldiers

[civilizationfanatic2000]

"They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them and in the furnace of war I shall forge them. They shall be of iron will and steely sinew. In great armour I shall clad them and with the mightiest weapons shall they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight them. They shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines...and they shall know no fear."


Genetic engineering is a very complex topic the Civ series should tackle. Super soldiers are just one area of that topic. Super soldiers should be late game, and serve the role of 'super infantry'. Infantry that can carry heavy weapons and armor and thus have the stats of light vehicles. They should have the ability to heal wounds faster and breathe underwater, or in space. Any infantry unit that goes up against them will be 1000% shredded to bits. However, they are expensive and slow to make, and might incur dissent.

This is a simple suggestion.

 

[sTAPler27]

We need more wild future technologies in general. The modern era should end with invisibility tech, armies moved via teleportation, orbital lasers and android soldiers

 

[GeneralZIft]

Maybe... Realistically feasible future technology is better

 

[Patine]

"They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them and in the furnace of war I shall forge them. They shall be of iron will and steely sinew. In great armour I shall clad them and with the mightiest weapons shall they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight them. They shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines...and they shall know no fear."


Genetic engineering is a very complex topic the Civ series should tackle. Super soldiers are just one area of that topic. Super soldiers should be late game, and serve the role of 'super infantry'. Infantry that can carry heavy weapons and armor and thus have the stats of light vehicles. They should have the ability to heal wounds faster and breathe underwater, or in space. Any infantry unit that goes up against them will be 1000% shredded to bits. However, they are expensive and slow to make, and might incur dissent.

This is a simple suggestion.

This is pure wonk. Some advanced scientific inovations would be good, I can't really support this level of off-the-deep end stuff. Warhammer 40K is Fantasy in Space, like Star Wars is, not Science Fiction.

 

[Siptah]

GDRs are already bad enough.

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

This is pure wonk. Some advanced scientific inovations would be good, I can't really support this level of off-the-deep end stuff. Warhammer 40K is Fantasy in Space, like Star Wars is, not Science Fiction.

A more realistic way of adding 'super infantry' in, then, would be some sort of mini-mecha, akin to VOTOMs. But I do think within the next 20-50-100 years, governments will experiment with genetic engineering organisms for things like war. Instead of something as overt as a super soldier like a Space Marine, maybe an entire caste of smaller soldiers who fanatically obey all orders from their commanders to better fit in said mini-mecha (and other vehicles). Maybe the player could be allowed to customize their own populace with genetic engineering. Or create their own animals with genetic engineering.

 

[Patine]

A more realistic way of adding 'super infantry' in, then, would be some sort of mini-mecha, akin to VOTOMs. But I do think within the next 20-50-100 years, governments will experiment with genetic engineering organisms for things like war. Instead of something as overt as a super soldier like a Space Marine, maybe an entire caste of smaller soldiers who fanatically obey all orders from their commanders to better fit in said mini-mecha (and other vehicles). Maybe the player could be allowed to customize their own populace with genetic engineering. Or create their own animals with genetic engineering.

The political and social backlash from within non-totalitarian nations would be scandals of magnitudes on the Richtor scale beyond most military weapons development controversies, yet. And, the whole population? Really? Only if had hypothetical high-tech levels of military tech, and Medieval levels of social advancement, and without a Christian or Buddhist style religious base. Not otherwise is the majority of the population going to stand by and allow it. Do you grasp this?

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

The political and social backlash from within non-totalitarian nations would be scandals of magnitudes on the Richtor scale beyond most military weapons development controversies, yet.

Yup. Player should be allowed to do it regardless. Civilization should allow you to do stupid and/or evil actions.

And, the whole population? Really? Only if had hypothetical high-tech levels of military tech, and Medieval levels of social advancement, and without a Christian or Buddhist style religious base.

Sure, 100% possible in civilization. You can have a very, very totalitarian state with very high technology. And a religious base that encourages such things. Everyone else who has a religious base against such things is going to get mad at you though. It's a risk vs reward scenario. 'Are my neighbors sufficiently powerful enough that if I upset them, my chance of winning be hindered greatly? Am I okay with that?'

Not otherwise is the majority of the population going to stand by and allow it. Do you grasp this?

Mhm. It would come with severe backlash from the populace, even for a hyper totalitarian state. You'd have to try hard. Very hard. Again, risk vs reward. "If I do this, my populace will be angered. Can I afford that? Can I afford to shut down my populace if they try and act out?"

Although even with all of this it's likely genetic engineered soldiers is too much for a game that will most likely go 20 years in the future, max. More focus on non-military GMO technology would be seen.

 

[Patine]

Yup. Player should be allowed to do it regardless. Civilization should allow you to do stupid and/or evil actions.

Sure, 100% possible in civilization. You can have a very, very totalitarian state with very high technology. And a religious base that encourages such things. Everyone else who has a religious base against such things is going to get mad at you though. It's a risk vs reward scenario. 'Are my neighbors sufficiently powerful enough that if I upset them, my chance of winning be hindered greatly? Am I okay with that?'

Mhm. It would come with severe backlash from the populace, even for a hyper totalitarian state. You'd have to try hard. Very hard. Again, risk vs reward. "If I do this, my populace will be angered. Can I afford that? Can I afford to shut down my populace if they try and act out?"

Although even with all of this it's likely genetic engineered soldiers is too much for a game that will most likely go 20 years in the future, max. More focus on non-military GMO technology would be seen.

I don't know. I think a Nietzhean-style genetically-engineered society is highly overrated, and would lose a LOT more than it would gain.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm wearing the face of a genetically enhanced man with the message of please no to any kind of eugenics or genetic "enhancement."

 

[Xandinho]

GDRs are already bad enough.

Oh yes, I really hope they don’t bring that back.

I still don’t understand who they’re trying to please with these random futuristic sci-fi elements. Most civ players don't seem to demand it. People who really enjoy those kinds of things will likely seek out more appropriate games for it.

Still, I hope they keep an even greater distance from fantasy elements.

 

[sTAPler27]

The political and social backlash from within non-totalitarian nations would be scandals of magnitudes on the Richtor scale beyond most military weapons development controversies, yet. And, the whole population? Really? Only if had hypothetical high-tech levels of military tech, and Medieval levels of social advancement, and without a Christian or Buddhist style religious base. Not otherwise is the majority of the population going to stand by and allow it. Do you grasp this?

Make it so that the construction of certain units leads to stability and diplomatic penalties

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

"Genetically Engineered" humans is an old, old Science Fiction concept. Everybody who ever proposes it overlooks the obvious problem with it, and it isn't any resistance from the general population or the rest of humanity, although that could be considerable.

It's the fact that it takes 15 - 20 years to get a genetically enhanced soldier starting with a genetically enhanced baby. And during that time your opponents can simply develop better weapons for their soldiers, train them in a year or so, and wipe out you and your genetically enhanced children. The entire concept is militarily inefficient.

Also, of course, there are limitations to just how enhanced you can make the humans: you can make the average, or even above-average - sized human body stronger, but you cannot make it as strong potentially as a machine made of advanced metals and powered by advanced engines: the limitation on the human is built in, the limitations on the machinery are only in the technology achieved.

Robert Heinlein (who was both a trained engineer and a trained military officer) made the better prediction of potential advances with his Mobile Infantry - ordinary men motivated and trained the way ordinary men have been trained and motivated since at least Roman times, equipped with enhanced 'suits' of armor powered and equipped with very advanced weapons, sensors, engines. He supposed systems that would make the most of ordinary humans instead of trying to breed extraordinary humans which would take more time and quickly reach the limitations of the biology.

The principle addition to that since he wrote Starship Troopers is that today we know that Camouflage is just about everything: if you can be spotted, you can be targeted by something Big Enough to kill you, no matter what kind of Supersuit or Genes you sport. So the major addition to Heinlein's concept would be masking, deceiving, 'stealth' and other technologies to make the trooper as invisible as possible to the enemy weapons.

Of course, that adds another problem to the game: how do you show off graphically an advanced weapon/soldier system that is trying very hard to be Invisible to every possible surveillance system? Another suspension of belief will be required . . .

 

[GeneralZIft]

My first Civ game was Civ5 so I'm accustomed to GDR in the game, because for me it was actually out of left field. Almost 99% of the game is historical or semi-historical and also fairly realistic.

But I think there's a small charm to unrealistic elements in these types of games. In SMALL amounts that is.

I always think that if you remove absolutely all fantastical, non-fiction, or unrealistic elements, then it slowly loses charm. 2c

 

[Zaarin]

My first Civ game was Civ5 so I'm accustomed to GDR in the game, because for me it was actually out of left field. Almost 99% of the game is historical or semi-historical and also fairly realistic.

But I think there's a small charm to unrealistic elements in these types of games. In SMALL amounts that is.

I always think that if you remove absolutely all fantastical, non-fiction, or unrealistic elements, then it slowly loses charm. 2c

I completely agree with this, and part of HK's many, many problems was that it took itself so gravely seriously aside from the cheeky narrator. I think some fantastic elements are more interesting than others, though.

 

[Gorbles]

Oh yes, I really hope they don’t bring that back.

I still don’t understand who they’re trying to please with these random futuristic sci-fi elements. Most civ players don't seem to demand it. People who really enjoy those kinds of things will likely seek out more appropriate games for it.

Still, I hope they keep an even greater distance from fantasy elements.

Having something that's "near-future" even if it's rather ridiculous is the kind of anachronistic lategame thing that players tend to appreciate. Maybe the XCOM soldier was better-suited than the GDR (in V or VI), thematically as "near-future" more than the Firaxis crossover, but still. We are a sample size of incredibly anecdotal and minute size, here on CFC, and as usual I'm here to remind anyone who says "most civ players" of that fact.

Does that mean Civilisation needs to be SMAC 1.5, or Beyond Earth 1.95, or some other tired exaggeration? No. But some futuristic elements to help sell the idea of the final phase of the game is neat. Do we complain about the Science Victory in VI, despite the fact that an Martian colony isn't still quite within our reach? I mean, maybe some folks do. Anecdotally, I haven't seen much criticism of it.

 

[Xandinho]

Having something that's "near-future" even if it's rather ridiculous is the kind of anachronistic lategame thing that players tend to appreciate. Maybe the XCOM soldier was better-suited than the GDR (in V or VI), thematically as "near-future" more than the Firaxis crossover, but still. We are a sample size of incredibly anecdotal and minute size, here on CFC, and as usual I'm here to remind anyone who says "most civ players" of that fact.

Does that mean Civilisation needs to be SMAC 1.5, or Beyond Earth 1.95, or some other tired exaggeration? No. But some futuristic elements to help sell the idea of the final phase of the game is neat. Do we complain about the Science Victory in VI, despite the fact that an Martian colony isn't still quite within our reach? I mean, maybe some folks do. Anecdotally, I haven't seen much criticism of it.

Well, I got your point and I can tolerate one or two 'near-future' elements, but I’d say that the Giant Death Robot is not near-future at all - it's pure science fiction. The science victory in Civ6 feels tedious and unnecessarily long. I much prefer Civ5's version, where the rocket parts were built separately and transported to be assembled at the launch site.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

For near future possibilities, the game might usefully look at both Future Tech predictions from the people who follow those things for a living, and other games.

The Near Future (actually, predicted for years now, but always Not Quite Here Yet)

Autonomous, AI-driven vehicles - both military and civilian
Nanotech - the ability to make anything out of anything
Genetic Enhancement - with all of its ethical and political ramifications.
Fusion Power
Re-wilding - which is going on now, but could be increased in scale and size
Invisibility through materials science - experiments are now going on

From the old Test of Time game:

Orbital Habitats of city size - which could include the L5 projects that could be really huge - kilometers long cylinders housing potentially millions of people
Undersea mining and exploitation
Force Field defenses - this, it turns out, is still probably Far Away

Just thoughts, but I think examples of what could be included in a "4th Age" that covers Near Future.

 

[sTAPler27]

I really think the game needs ways of demonstrating your scientific prowess in a visible way. For a military victory you just take a loot at the map to see all the territory you've aquired and for culture your country is covered in wonders, national parks and entertainment districts. For science you'll at most have some space ports. A civ way ahead in science should show it in the late game, you should be able to see automated extractors, strange aircraft flying over cities, green power dotting the landscape and even cities built in places never thought possible.

 

[Patine]

Having something that's "near-future" even if it's rather ridiculous is the kind of anachronistic lategame thing that players tend to appreciate. Maybe the XCOM soldier was better-suited than the GDR (in V or VI), thematically as "near-future" more than the Firaxis crossover, but still. We are a sample size of incredibly anecdotal and minute size, here on CFC, and as usual I'm here to remind anyone who says "most civ players" of that fact.

Does that mean Civilisation needs to be SMAC 1.5, or Beyond Earth 1.95, or some other tired exaggeration? No. But some futuristic elements to help sell the idea of the final phase of the game is neat. Do we complain about the Science Victory in VI, despite the fact that an Martian colony isn't still quite within our reach? I mean, maybe some folks do. Anecdotally, I haven't seen much criticism of it.

Yes, but it should depend on what is included. Is a genetically-engineered population NEAR-future, or much further down? I would say the latter, along with multiple-exoplanet colonization, functional and harmonious world government, 300-year-lifespans, panacea, near-light-speed travel, etc. Such hypothetical techs are almost certainly not coming anytime soon.