Genghis and Isabella´s UA - attacking city-states

[oKuuma]

I was thinking of playing Isabella and get the natural wonder benefits. Since most natural wonders are mostly in city-state territory, I would have to conquer those but then everybody would hate me as a warmonger. And what´s up with Genghis? His UA is specifically made for attacking city-states? Ok most civs hate Genghis anyway once he starts his little conquests, poor little cute puppy I´d really like to pet. Does anyone have experience with this kind of gameplay, attacking city-states, being a warmonger but still manage to get through a decent game and maybe still have one or more friends on higher difficulties?

 

[Cromagnus]

Capturing CS is extremely bad now in BNW. Everyone will hate you.

However, there are ways to get CS Natural Wonders without penalty.

1) Build a city next to it and grab the tile with a great general. This is the best way.
2) Pay a nearby CIV to declare war on that CS, after you've nuked it down to zero health. Even the pitiful AI will succeed at capturing that city. Then re-capture it and puppet instead of liberating.

 

[oKuuma]

I didn´t think of that citadel thing and paying others to not get the penalty oneself. Great tips, thanks a lot.

I still wonder if anyone actually plays Genghis for his UA knowing that everyone will hate you. His UA seems pretty useless then.

 

[Suicidekills]

Well I always saw Khan's UA as a way to help fighting other civs with city state allies. Sometimes city states can be in the way or out of the way but still bothering your empire. I mean its not groundbreaking but the bonus to fighting city states helps a little at least. Plus the khan and keshiks is all u need for mongolia.

 

[Cromagnus]

Generally his UA is nerfed now. It does help somewhat because your enemies will have CS allies. However, consider this:

At a certain point in the warpath, it doesn't matter if you incur the wrath of city states. Sometimes, they're in the way. Sometimes, they're next to your enemy's capital. Capturing that CS *can* be beneficial in certain circumstances. It depends.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Mongols' UA is intentionally minimal and relatively useless to counterbalance their super-synchronized UUs.

I've tried taking out CS with Spain. You can do about 2 before the whole world loses its mind with warmonger hate.

 

[GhostSalsa]

Even supposing the penalties were lower, I don't see what the point would be conquering for a Natural Wonder as Spain. This tile is only going to benefit the city it's in, which you've just half-destroyed, which is usually in poor terrain generally (the natural wonder tile averaged with the surrounding regular tiles will probably still be mediocre in balance), and all that after investing hammers in military with your core cities. It sounds like a wash. At the point in the game when you can start to conquer, you have AI targets in better location with wonders that offer benefits to your whole empire.

 

[oKuuma]

At the point in the game when you can start to conquer, you have AI targets in better location with wonders that offer benefits to your whole empire.

Hmm, kind of a good point. Well, it depends. Sometimes CS have some strategic resources you don´t have and it might be worth it. Mt. Kilimajaro is something I´d give anything for.

 

[krc]

You don't have to conquer CS to use Genghis' UA. You can just DoW, capture workers, attack and kill units for XP, and pillage tiles for gold.

 

[OneRedBlock]

Hmm, kind of a good point. Well, it depends. Sometimes CS have some strategic resources you don´t have and it might be worth it. Mt. Kilimajaro is something I´d give anything for.

Just send units into the CS' territory next to Kili, you still get the promotion.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Even supposing the penalties were lower, I don't see what the point would be conquering for a Natural Wonder as Spain. This tile is only going to benefit the city it's in, which you've just half-destroyed, which is usually in poor terrain generally (the natural wonder tile averaged with the surrounding regular tiles will probably still be mediocre in balance), and all that after investing hammers in military with your core cities. It sounds like a wash. At the point in the game when you can start to conquer, you have AI targets in better location with wonders that offer benefits to your whole empire.

City-states are usually much easier targets than full fledged civs in the early game. The penalty isn't going to get any softer so if the wonder is really, really good then why not? I'd do it for Uluru.

 

[iconocast]

if the CS next to ur capital has a wonder its kind of hard to NOT capture it as spain the bonuses are that good

 

[Cromagnus]

Better to use a Great General... no diplomatic penalties.. You'll lose like 40 pts with the CS, but meh.

 

[George Abitbol]

If Gengis is in the game, it's even better: usually he loves to conquers CS at the beginning of the game, DoW him and unstead of liberating the CS, keep them for you.

 

[beetle]

I've tried taking out CS with Spain. You can do about 2 before the whole world loses its mind with warmonger hate.

Can you even do two without the permanent warmonger hate? I thought the limit was one?

 

[Justice1337]

One trick I think works is to capture the CS before you've met all the AI's. The ones you know will hate you, but you can just plan on fighting them anyway if you play Ghengis. What you want to avoid is the whole world DOW'ing you at once.

Another solution is to just play Austria/Venice. Much better all around for Diplo, occupied city happiness, and city yield.

But in the first place, is it really true that most all of the Natural Wonders are in CS territory? It doesn't seem that way to me.

 

[Cromagnus]

2 will permanently increase the rate at which you lose faction from CS. I think three perma-wars you with all CS? I can't remember. 2 extreme warmonger penalties will often make everyone hate you, but you can do it before you meet everyone...

Example:

Be Spain. Be the first to discover two natural wonders. Use the proceeds to buy an army. Capture 2 cs by like t20 when you've only met two people. They'll hate you, but fear you, because of your large early army. The rest won't know you did it.

But, screw that, just forward settle on that CS and if it's already in their boundaries, use a Great General. No need to capture unless it's a juicy city.

 

[krc]

But in the first place, is it really true that most all of the Natural Wonders are in CS territory? It doesn't seem that way to me.

Pretty much. The basic world-creation algorithm is

1. Place the settlers for the player and AI civilizations.
2. Place the natural wonders, trying to keep them at least 10 tiles from any civ.
3. Place the city-states.

As a consequence, the CS are almost always closer to the wonders than any of the civs.

 

[beetle]

The basic world-creation algorithm is... As a consequence, the CS are almost always closer to the wonders than any of the civs.

Thanks for that. How is that the CS almost always have a monopoly on at least one strategic resource? Would I be correct to assume that placement of all luxuries and resources happens before Step 1? Starting settlers are always in above average spots, so I assume they are placed near visible luxes and resources. Or does the algorithm only consider luxes? Does the civ settler drop consider hidden resources?

I would note that the CS get settlers too, and if the minimum city space is above 4, it is quite likely that a least one never gets to found a city.

Do the AI civs ever move their settlers even one hex from the initial drop location? From watching the scoreboard, I have never noticed a civ starting on turn 1 instead of turn 0.