George Bush visits the UK

[carlosMM]

Originally posted by Cactus_Jack


Idid thats why i put a question mark after my statement. Please dont call all WTO idiots and lump them as all the same. Whats worse throwing stones at police, or implementing economic systems that attack the third world keeping them poor? People are matching against a unwelcome guest, and against the ilegal looting and occupation of Iraqi.
If you know anything about international law you would know invading a country doesnt give you a right to explot it resorces or write its economic policys for it for your own gain.

tsk tsk tsk, physical violence against people whose job it is to keep innocent people safe is something a bit different than economic abuse of third world countries.....

heard about Basel on Saturday evening? deomstrators attacked policemen with acid. Guess what they were demonstrating against? police oppression...... now, how can the police react to protect themselves from these people? by oppressing them



there is a lot of injustice in the world, but if you try to change it, then a) do not pick a fight with people who are not to blame and might help you and
b) find a way for your protest that has a chance of success.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

A poll in today’s Gruaniad shows more British welcome Bush than don't

The detailed results of the poll show that more people - 43% - say they welcome George Bush's arrival in Britain than the 36% who say they would prefer he did not come.

And we are still very pro-American

The survey shows that public opinion in Britain is overwhelmingly pro-American with 62% of voters believing that the US is "generally speaking a force for good, not evil, in the world". It explodes the conventional political wisdom at Westminster that Mr Bush's visit will prove damaging to Tony Blair. Only 15% of British voters agree with the idea that America is the "evil empire" in the world.

And more support the war than don’t

The ICM poll also uncovers a surge in pro-war sentiment in the past two months as suicide bombers have stepped up their attacks on western targets and troops in Iraq. Opposition to the war has slumped by 12 points since September to only 41% of all voters. At the same time those who believe the war was justified has jumped 9 points to 47% of voters.

Full report on:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1087545,00.html

 

[Cactus_Jack]

Originally posted by Mega Tsunami
A poll in today’s Gruaniad shows more British welcome Bush than don't

The detailed results of the poll show that more people - 43% - say they welcome George Bush's arrival in Britain than the 36% who say they would prefer he did not come.

And we are still very pro-American

The survey shows that public opinion in Britain is overwhelmingly pro-American with 62% of voters believing that the US is "generally speaking a force for good, not evil, in the world". It explodes the conventional political wisdom at Westminster that Mr Bush's visit will prove damaging to Tony Blair. Only 15% of British voters agree with the idea that America is the "evil empire" in the world.

And more support the war than don’t

The ICM poll also uncovers a surge in pro-war sentiment in the past two months as suicide bombers have stepped up their attacks on western targets and troops in Iraq. Opposition to the war has slumped by 12 points since September to only 41% of all voters. At the same time those who believe the war was justified has jumped 9 points to 47% of voters.

Full report on:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1087545,00.html

So one poll proves that we are pro American? I dont know one person who likes the American goverment. I know people who are so anti American it makes me tame. I want to see loads of polls suporting the president before i buy in to them. rember its not that same people being polled. I highly doubt so many woudl change there mind for or against the war.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

@Cactus_Jack – There’s none so blind as those who don’t wish to see.

 

[Nad]

Cactus Jack: I did not include all the letters because that would have made the post very long. I noted the link and chose a few letters that I liked. Indeed, there are many anti-bush letters too which you can read on the link I provided.

R3: the demonstrations are organized and peaceful. These are not really demonstrations against the Iraq war, that's been and gone, the demonstrations are to show anger at Bush and his treatment of international law/opinion/ethics. What other time can that be done except when Bush is visiting the country? It seems to be that this is the perfect opportunity for demonstrations.

Portillo's letter: yes, it is shockingly sycophantic That's why I enjoyed it so much, typical Portillo, trying to stick his head up Bush's ass

 

[Cactus_Jack]

Originally posted by Mega Tsunami
@Cactus_Jack – There’s none so blind as those who don’t wish to see.

Arent you the person who is arguing against evolution?

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Nad
Cactus Jack: I did not include all the letters because that would R3: the demonstrations are organized and peaceful. These are not really demonstrations against the Iraq war, that's been and gone, the demonstrations are to show anger at Bush and his treatment of international law/opinion/ethics. What other time can that be done except when Bush is visiting the country? It seems to be that this is the perfect opportunity for demonstrations.

...speaks to Saul Alinksy's old point about how thoughtless the left is.

Would have been far more devastating to have brought over some guy named "Bob" - age, 36, civ fan, snowboarder - and given him a Presidential tour, with lines like "Bob is a better representative of American interests than Bush," and have a ceremony recognizing him as the real American President "on the advice of the Supreme Court of the United States." And otherwise, ignore him, and do everything possible to keep the streets clear for his arrival.

Would have been much more convincing. The point to dealing with this guy is not to demonstrate; it just convinces him and his colleagues and core supporters that they are more right than ever. The point is to humiliate. Treat him like the backwards-ass, embarrassing one-termer pappa's boy that he's afraid he really is.

R.III

 

[Cactus_Jack]

Originally posted by Richard III



...speaks to Saul Alinksy's old point about how thoughtless the left is.

Would have been far more devastating to have brought over some guy named "Bob" - age, 36, civ fan, snowboarder - and given him a Presidential tour, with lines like "Bob is a better representative of American interests than Bush," and have a ceremony recognizing him as the real American President "on the advice of the Supreme Court of the United States." And otherwise, ignore him, and do everything possible to keep the streets clear for his arrival.

Would have been much more convincing. The point to dealing with this guy is not to demonstrate; it just convinces him and his colleagues and core supporters that they are more right than ever. The point is to humiliate. Treat him like the backwards-ass, embarrassing one-termer pappa's boy that he's afraid he really is.

R.III

He is not that stupid surely? I mean its the old Ronald Reagon trick, pretend you are a simple sincere person who is slightly niave. Also i am convinced he will steal a second election somehow.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Cactus_Jack

He is not that stupid surely? I mean its the old Ronald Reagon trick, pretend you are a simple sincere person who is slightly niave. Also i am convinced he will steal a second election somehow.

I don't think he's stupid. On the contrary.

But I do think he's human. If you were W., which would be a worse thing to have to talk to the media about in Nov. 2003 - demonstrators arguing that you were too pro-american in defending american interests, or answering the question "people still don't see you as a real legitimate president. How do you respond to that?"

After all, he invaded Iraq under awful circumstances to prove he was better than his dad, so why wouldn't prodding him in the same way force him to make another mistake...?



he he

 

[luiz]

@Cactus_Jack
Violence against the police is NEVER justified.
Furthermore, the WTO is not to blame for the poverty of the third world. I live in the third world and I know perfectly well what makes us poor. The WTO is, in fact, the only place where we can fight against the evil agriculture subsidies of the rich countrys.

 

[Cactus_Jack]

Originally posted by luiz
@Cactus_Jack
Violence against the police is NEVER justified.
Furthermore, the WTO is not to blame for the poverty of the third world. I live in the third world and I know perfectly well what makes us poor. The WTO is, in fact, the only place where we can fight against the evil agriculture subsidies of the rich countrys.

Yep and they dont listen and side with the rich countrys as far as i am aware. Also most people dont do anything that breaks that law when they protest. Also sometimes the police start things themselfs so they are not blameless.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by Cactus_Jack



Yep and they dont listen and side with the rich countrys as far as i am aware.

Unfortunately that's mostly true. Still, at least we can have a say there, take it away and the third world becomes a hopeless case.

And I agree that most of the protestors don't want to harm anyone, but fact is once people start throwin molotov cocktails at the police the whole event becomes compromissed.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Originally posted by Cactus_Jack



So one poll proves that we are pro American? I dont know one person who likes the American goverment. I know people who are so anti American it makes me tame.

Well, nice to see you've got friends with different opinions and outlooks on life to help give you a balanced outlook on the world around you (I have friends who are religious, though I'm a sceptic who detest organised religion, I've gone out for curries with Islamic Fundamentalists...it helps you see the other persons point of view and helps moderate your own opinion).

Maybe civfanatics will help you, (looks towards RMS, Richard III, Floppa and Simon) but I suspect it won't

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Maybe civfanatics will help you, (looks towards RMS, Richard III, Floppa and Simon) but I suspect it won't

Don't put me in with those leftists. Anyway, the last time one helped a leftist was to deliver a coup de grace to hurry up the day's festivities.

Those who are violent towards the law enforcement officials or public property, allow violence, condone it, and tacitly encourage it under the guise of public protest should be shot down like the dogs they are.

 

[tonberry]

About time the leader of the country pay a visit to his subalterne.

 

[Dr. Dr. Doktor]

Originally posted by Nad

These are not really demonstrations against the Iraq war, that's been and gone, the demonstrations are to show anger at Bush and his treatment of international law/opinion/ethics.

Tell that to the familes of the Italian and American soldiers.

The demonstrations are not merely to show anger. They are to show complete and utter revulsion. And they are not directed against the person Bush. He is merely a figurehead. A tool. They are directed against the fat cats who sacrifice the lives of millions for filthy lucre. They are not directed against the U.S. The U.S. is merely also a tool providing the troops for the Capitalists to exploit the rest. Its only when the patriotic Americans discover this that the excrement is going to hit the proverbial fan.

That is why the supposedly 'leftist' press has been so busy in working up their 'anti-americanism'. The capitalist inflitrators know that if they can make the world seem 'anti-american' then they can divide and conquer. At the same time the 'rightist' press is adopting a 'pro-american' stance. But only on the surface. Look deeper and you will find resentment by them that American capitalists is getting the better of it, while their own is getting the worse. As if they did not have enough allready. That is where one should look out for trouble.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Would have been far more devastating to have brought over some guy named "Bob" - age, 36, civ fan, snowboarder - and given him a Presidential tour, with lines like "Bob is a better representative of American interests than Bush," and have a ceremony recognizing him as the real American President "on the advice of the Supreme Court of the United States." And otherwise, ignore him, and do everything possible to keep the streets clear for his arrival.

Would have been much more convincing. The point to dealing with this guy is not to demonstrate; it just convinces him and his colleagues and core supporters that they are more right than ever. The point is to humiliate. Treat him like the backwards-ass, embarrassing one-termer pappa's boy that he's afraid he really is.

That's the most HILARIOUS thing I've read all week!

If only people with a sense of humor were in charge of the Democratic Party

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Richard III
Would have been far more devastating to have brought over some guy named "Bob" - age, 36, civ fan, snowboarder - and given him a Presidential tour, with lines like "Bob is a better representative of American interests than Bush," and have a ceremony recognizing him as the real American President "on the advice of the Supreme Court of the United States." And otherwise, ignore him, and do everything possible to keep the streets clear for his arrival.

Would have been much more convincing. The point to dealing with this guy is not to demonstrate; it just convinces him and his colleagues and core supporters that they are more right than ever. The point is to humiliate. Treat him like the backwards-ass, embarrassing one-termer pappa's boy that he's afraid he really is.

Sounds nice but is on essence exactly the kind of "activism" the left is already doing all the time. Those kind of "actions" have been done for decades. The result is that they make silent leftist intellectuals smile in front of their bookshelves and, if the activist's are lucky, give the media something for a sidenote besides the "real news" about Blair grinning his a*s off next to his "old friend" George and W. taking pictures with the Queen.
A major demonstration is more news, not that either will archieve anything. And all that is easily beaten by a single molotov cocktail flying towards the police cordon in the evening news.

Finally all those people who wouldn't even get the joke will then once again be happy to say "those nasty trouble-makers, switch over to pop idol".
And the aging intellectuals will assure themselves that while that is certainly not the right thing to do they will do the right thing - some other day.

 

[Richard III]

All true Hitro- but those consequences are not as severe as the consequences of separating yourself even further from the public through mass-demonstrations. My preferred alternative to all of those tactics is to actually express an argument, or "knock on doors" to convince real people, but those sorts of quaint efforts to actually build support have been deemed too "complacent" for years.

And as for Kitten, well, a textbook example to Cactus, Dr, and their ilk that abandoning the doctrinaire duckspeak doesn't mean you have to give up on having youthful self-righteous, finger-pointing bitterness as the basis of your politics if you don't want to.

I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone would put me alongside sharpe (no offense, buddy, but...?) or Simon, unless the link is that I, too, dared to disagree with Kitten in print once. And Floppa's too young for me.

R.III

 

[sysyphus]

Perhaps whilst in the UK, GWB could begin steps to liberate another oppressed group of people on British soil, i.e. the visiting teams to Old Trafford.