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[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Estebonrober, May 28, 2020.

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  1. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Surely any system that produces racist outcomes is a racist system?

    Also I don't think the kind of coyness you're showing here is useful. Back at the beginning of the thread there were complaints about how some people are reading "too much" into what others are saying, so it can be useful to say what your actual position is instead of deliberately hinting and leaving the reader guessing.
     
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  2. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Probably Hillary and the war on drugs.

    This is really silly. Leopold II is not so ancient that his impact is gone. And he's no Great Man like Caesar or Napoleon either. It definitely makes more sense to desecrate his statue.

    I get that you might see it as unproductive, but is this really a hill you want to die on?
     
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  3. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    It's really very simple. Black Americans started with literally nothing in 1865 and then had everything they worked for taken from them by white supremacy in various forms. There's the obvious governmental coups in the South around the turn of the century, the burning and looting of "black wall street" in Oklahoma, thousands or tens of thousands of lynchings and general intimidation, the drug war starting as early as the 1930s, a century of segregation, assassination, I mean you name it. Any time black people are succeeding we tear it down and don't allow it to happen. The smaller scale of "why" black people are on the lower rung of the ladder - drug war or voting disenfranchisement, redlining, segregation, whatever arguments you agree or disagree with, the ultimate cause is extremely simple. White supremacy. The other things are just vectors of attack.
     
  4. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    Comparing Leopold II to Caesar is actually pretty spot on, because Caesar could be seen as really similar figure. Both caused the death of millions of civilians, Gauls in the case of Caesar and Kongolese in the case of Leopold. The fact that Caesar lived long time ago doesnt make him better person. I mean he was more influential and he was important man no doubt, but if we are talking this purely from the moral point of view...

    In the end most "great men" of history were more or less criminals and caused mostly suffering and death. Before modern times that was the norm. You had to kill a lot of people to became a "great man".
     
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    This is a strawman. I never said the Democrats were not culpable. In fact, in that John Oliver video I posted I specifically highlighted the part blaming Clinton/Democrats and tagged you to it... so your accusation here makes zero sense.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    First of all this is the same old victim-blaming misdirection that people have been trying to use to undermine Black Lives Matter from the beginning... trying to change the focus to "black-on-black crime". That's a separate issue. We're talking about police conduct, stop trying to change the subject. Second, there are only 8 states which haven't legalized and/or decriminalized marijuana at this point so the "drug war" refrain is stale... the "drug war" issue is being addressed, and making progress... we're talking about addressing police racism and police brutality, stop trying to change the subject just so you can go after Democrats.
    What a bizarre question. I don't see how you could be confused about this. There's far more white Americans so it follows that the police would kill more white Americans, however the per-capita numbers are much higher for black people. This is because the way the police go about their business is racist, but particularly moreso towards black people, which is why the per capita numbers are higher for black people than anyone else.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  6. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    How does the drug war correlate to a lower number of Hispanics? Aren't they policed just as hard related to drugs as African Americans? It's who the GoP often blames for bringing drugs here in the first place.

    I guess my question is if ending the drug war would help solve the problem why are Hispanics an outlier? Are they less involved with drugs or is something else to blame for African American deaths?
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    That's a distraction. I wouldn't put too much attention on that. First of all Hispanics often self-describe as white and it is easier for Hispanics to live their lives identifying as white than it would be for a black person. So some of the Hispanic deaths are getting counted as white instead. Also, those same statistics have such high numbers of police killings in the "other" and "unknown" categories that the amount of Hispanics that could be included, but not counted is possibly substantial.

    "Ending the drug war" isn't THE solution because the problem is racism. Legalizing drugs isn't going to stop cops from thinking, feeling and behaving in racist ways. If you remove the drugs excuse they will just come up with another excuse to mistreat black people and everyone else.
     
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  8. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    But this is actually how the whole world has always been. It has nothing to do with "white supremacy". Religious minorities in Muslim majority countries have always been treated extremely harshly and violently. Same thing with Jews and Roma people in Europe, ethnic minorities in Russia, Pygmies and Khoisan people in Africa... Actually religious and ethnic minorities in all countries have usually been treated badly. Only after WW2 this has started to change in WESTERN countries. For example non-Muslims are still second class citizens in majority Muslim countries.

    The idea that African-Americans are in some way totally unique in their experience is quite weird to me. For example slavery was much harsher and deadly in Caribbean than in the USA. Also there are lots of reason to say that black people in South-America have actually had it worse than black people in USA. Even police brutality is worse in Brazil than in USA. We are just living in very USA centered world where American lives and experiences are given much more value than non-Americans.

    If this incident had happened in Brazil no one outside of Brazil would care. And even in Brazil it would probably not have caused anything major. Think about it! The fact the person killed was US citizen was the reason his "life mattered". Thats quite ironic.
     
  9. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I don't like the idea of desecrating any old statues. Sure, when an odious regime is overthrown its symbols are going to go, and that I think is fair. But Leopold's is gone for a long time now, and the statue was not in in Congo where he did his reign of terror. Move it somewhere less prominent, place another one nearby to his victims to remind people of who he was and how the assessment of his doings evolved. Don't just try to erase history.

    Demand it moved I'm ok with that, so I guess what actually happened in Brussels is not something I have an issue with. But attacking statues over far-gone events is childish. There's living fish to fry, don't get distracted with the dead one.

    Also on the "defended the police" idea, there are good points to be made about the hypocrisy of those who have been defunding some polices and want to fund just the ones that protect "property and order". There's plenty to fight over on the political arena. But are there people willing and capable to do it and seriously undermine the current government? Or is this going to be another "me too"? I'm shocked, shocked that racism has been going on here...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
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  10. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Getting rid of statues isnt "erasing history" its saying "this guy doesn't really deserve a monument."

    I'd say its actually acknowledging history and the impact left by some of the garbage people who've for some reason had statues of them put up.
     
  11. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Any other deflections and minimisations you reckon you forgot there? Might as well blurt out every one you can think of all at once while you've got some momentum going.
     
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  12. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Your personal dislike of an essentially harmless (and still logical) political action really has no bearing on anything except your own feelings.
     
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  13. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    There's been another push recently to take down the beloved statue of Sul Ross at Texas A&M University. (he was a CSA general, governor of Texas after the war, and then president of the A&M College) He was actually a champion of black people during his time as governor and afterwards. :rolleyes: But perhaps that's worse because it's a reminder that not all CSA officers were monsters or even racists.

    The people trying to rewrite history don't know history; they're just making it up as they go.

    ETA: Here's a letter from the Texas A&M chancellor from the previous go-round two years ago:

     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
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  14. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    What did he do for black people? I was looking it up and the only reference to race was the Jaybird-Woodpecker war and it sounds like he sided almost completely with the Jaybirds (white democrats) over the Woodpeckers (Democrats elected by multiracial coalitions). The Jaybirds victory helped galvanize white supremacy in the south.

    Am I missing something or is somebody else trying to rewrite history?

    Venerating the CSA or its officials is pretty strictly speaking actual rewriting of history.
     
  15. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    So what? You seem to be leaving your actual point unsaid.

    Again, so what? What is your actual point?

    Yet again, so what? Why does it matter if some CSA were not racists? What does it prove? How is it relevant to us today?
     
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  16. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    If we're just looking for a label, "disparity in treatment by the police" seems sufficient. I'm working from the assumption that nobody should be illegally brutalised by the police, so I can only open the floor to whoever wishes to explain why white people being less frequently illegally brutalised by the police constitutes some sort of undeserved advantage.

    My contention is not with the claim that black and brown Americans are more severely disadvantaged than white Americans; this is self-evidently true. My contention is that this does not translate into advantage on the part of white Americans. I find this assertion to be both morally offensive and politically self-defeating.

    Working class white Americans are dealt a bad hand; working class black and brown Americans are dealt a worse hand. But a bad hand remains a bad hand, and neither the bad hand nor the worse hand will be improved by pretending otherwise. Only by acknowledging both of these lousy hands for what they are can we aim towards any sort of socioeconomic justice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  17. Naskra

    Naskra Emperor

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    They are unique. No other subjugated people was ever so thoroughly stripped. Those who made the middle passage lost their home, family, language, religion, cuisine, clothing -- everything, even their names.
     
  18. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    Your comment seems to suggest that facts dont matter to you. I guess everything that contradicts with your opinion is deflection and minimisation.

    This BLM mess we are now seeing is not based on facts, its based on feelings. Just like your response.
     
  19. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    No they are not. There is NOTHING unique about what you wrote. Even if so called "African-Americans" would include slaves from all parts of America - you are wrong. I hope you didnt think slaves in USA were somehow special.

    You probably should learn about history of slavery. Trans-Saharan slave trade, Barbary corsairs, Trans-Atlantic slave trade ... slavery is global phenomenon. In most parts of Africa, Europe and Asia slavery was very similar to slavery in Americas as some point of their history.

    You know millions of Europeans enslaved by Arabs and Ottomans lost their "home, family, language, religion, cuisine, clothing -- everything, even their names". Same thing for all Europeans and Africans brought to Arab countries. Only difference being that Arabs usually castrated their male slaves.

    Trans-Saharan slave trade was also larger and longer lasting phenomenon than trans-Atlantic slave trade.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  20. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    Because they shaped the world they lived in. And now the hypocrites are talking about making a monument to Floyd. Begging your pardon but he was a criminal. The bastards who killed him over a 20$ note belong in jail, but he was no hero.

    Although, if the events triggered by his death lead to something big, then oddly enough it will make sense to put up a statue of an ordinary man with criminal past.
     
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