Georgia: Does It Make Sense to Admit it into NATO?

Spain and Portugal's NATO membership did little to help democracy. As with Ukraine, Georgia is not even applicable as a member.

You're half wrong. Spain approached NATO and was turned down several times. It was finally admitted in 1982. But half-right also: Portugal had only been included in 1949 because of the Azores, and had only joined because of the seemingly eternal spanish dreams of annexing Portugal - NATO had little impact on portuguese politics.
 
Maybe you're not familiar with who Politkovskaya was.

You just go ahead and read her book and weep, you will get hold of it in Canada, in Russia I am not so sure. You won't be so cocky afterwards.
Of course I'm not familiar :rolleyes:
She was mentioned thousand times on censored Russian TV.
The fact that she was anti-governmental journalist makes her right obviously.
And the fact that she was protecting rights of Chechens and strangely missed thousands of killed and expelled Russians created very good reputation for her in Russia.
 
Of course I'm not familiar :rolleyes:
She was mentioned thousand times on censored Russian TV.
The fact that she was anti-governmental journalist makes her right obviously.
And the fact that she was protecting rights of Chechens and strangely missed thousands of killed and expelled Russians created very good reputation for her in Russia.

Well, apparently you ARE not familiar who Politkovskaja was!:blush:

In her book "Putins Russia" she wrote much more about etchnic Russians than Chechens. For example about how the Admiral of the Pacific fleet and commander of the whole of Russias eastern most militaryforces earned less than 5000 rubels a month at the beginning of this decade, during Putins rule. 6000 rubels being the montly wage of a local bussdriver. Captains of atomic submarines earning even less and sometimes not getting payed for six months. One particular captain survived on one third of his dayly food rations intended for him, because he gave the rrest to his wife and daughter.

Not to forget her mentioning of several individual horrific destinies of Russian soldiers and officers fighting in Chechnjia.

It is obvious that the censorship of Russian TV has given you a twisted perception of Politkovskajas work.

Furthermore it is aparent that the Russian state has been very suxcessfully in its propagating that you apparently do not think of Chechens as Russians anymore. As any good tjeckist knows, you have to have a looming threat at peoples doorstep too keep them in line, and rasism is so easily inflamed.

Read the book and be indignant later, but towards the rulers of your country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politkovskaja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin's_Russia
 
Just because someone got politically murdered, doesn't make the dead one right.

Well usualy they get "politicaly murdered" because they know and talk about something that the political murderers do not whant the public to know. Usualy because it is something bad and not easily refutable. Usualy something Easily refutable is not worth killing for, because if it is easily refutable it is very simple to refute, meaning that it is not true.

Because something that IS true is much more difficult to refute, it is sometimes, especially in a thoroughly currupted country, much easier to silence people permanently, or as you so finely stated it: to Polliticaly murder them.:eek:
 
Well, apparently you ARE not familiar who Politkovskaja was!:blush:

In her book "Putins Russia" she wrote much more about etchnic Russians than Chechens. For example about how the Admiral of the Pacific fleet and commander of the whole of Russias eastern most militaryforces earned less than 5000 rubels a month at the beginning of this decade, during Putins rule. 6000 rubels being the montly wage of a local bussdriver. Captains of atomic submarines earning even less and sometimes not getting payed for six months. One particular captain survived on one third of his dayly food rations intended for him, because he gave the rrest to his wife and daughter.
Did she write, about the situation with military salaries before Putin's rule and how it changed for the last 10 years? I'm surprised that you chose to quote the thing which has improved during Putin's time, whereas there were things which worsened.
And 6000 rubles per month for bus driver? :dubious: Ok, may be.
Furthermore it is aparent that the Russian state has been very suxcessfully in its propagating that you apparently do not think of Chechens as Russians anymore. As any good tjeckist knows, you have to have a looming threat at peoples doorstep too keep them in line, and rasism is so easily inflamed.
Chechens are Russians by citizenship and not Russians by ethnicity. In English it is the same word. I meant ethnicity, because there was an ethnic conflict in Chechnya and as a result, Russian population of Chechnya was pretty much nullified. Did Politkovskaya write about this in her book?

Russian state media in general doesn't propagate racism and xenophobia. I don't even think Politkovskaya was so stupid to blame Putin on such propaganda, because it would be idiotic suicidal action of any central government in such country as Russia, and such blame would be obviously wrong for anybody who live in Russia. I guess you invented this, not read this in her book.
 
Pokurcz, you should understand that during Soviet rule we learned not to believe everyone who wrote a book or showed up on TV.

Well that is the thing right there, you are back in Soviet rule and worse, and someone dared to try to wake you up from the delusion and got killed because of it.:sad:
 
Did she write, about the situation with military salaries before Putin's rule and how it changed for the last 10 years? I'm surprised that you chose to quote the thing which has improved during Putin's time, whereas there were things which worsened.
And 6000 rubles per month for bus driver? :dubious: Ok, may be.
Yes she did, write of the turmoil before Putin. But that it was because of a strive to change that failed, whilst Putin has turned the clock back to Soviet times with a nice adition of high level crime.

Later...
 
Putin has turned the clock back to Soviet times.
You mean, he returned life expectancy back to the Soviet times, increasing it by 10 years?
Or reduced homicidal rate 4-5 times, returning it back to the Soviet times?
Reduced number of people addicted to drugs by orders of magnitude?
Restored industry, education, health care system, science - destroyed or half-destroyed by his predessors?
Not yet, we still have Freedom instead all of that.
 
Well that is the thing right there, you are back in Soviet rule and worse, and someone dared to try to wake you up from the delusion and got killed because of it.:sad:
Obviously, she was not killed because of she "dared to try to wake you up from the delusion" and wrote a book: there are lots of people in Russia who are disagree with government and tell about it on radio, TV, Internet, write books etc. There are several theories, for example, her last investigation was about tortures used by Chechenian government. She was journalist who make dangerous investigation, so she had numerous enemies.

As for this book - I've looked it, and it is what they call "propaganda". This book was written in 2004 which was only 4 years of Putin's rule, and she already blamed all the country problems on Putin, and this is ridiculous, because at that time he mainly dealt with problems created by his predecessors. And at that point his deeds were mostly good-natured: finished war in Chechnya, showed oligarchs that they should think more about state needs etc.
 
You mean, he returned life expectancy back to the Soviet times, increasing it by 10 years?
Or reduced homicidal rate 4-5 times, returning it back to the Soviet times?
Reduced number of people addicted to drugs by orders of magnitude?
Restored industry, education, health care system, sciense - destroyed or half-destroyed by his predessors?
Not yet, we still have Freedom instead all of that.

Nah, Russia is doing OK, but if I were you I would try emigration.
 
Chechens are Russians by citizenship and not Russians by ethnicity. In English it is the same word. I meant ethnicity, because there was an ethnic conflict in Chechnya and as a result, Russian population of Chechnya was pretty much nullified. Did Politkovskaya write about this in her book?

Pokurcz, answer this question please.

Also, regarding this please:
Well that is the thing right there, you are back in Soviet rule and worse, and someone dared to try to wake you up from the delusion and got killed because of it.:sad:
Could you tell me what your position is with regard to latest Iraqi War as given by most of Western media (WMDs etc).

Nah, Russia is doing OK, but if I were you I would try emigration.
From what I can read in this post I could say that you need to suffer a little to understand life more and not give such arrogant advices.
 
From what I can read in this post I could say that you need to suffer a little to understand life more and not give such arrogant advices.

You mean, being discriminated and mistreated by foreign people/governments? After that someone realized to be patriotic and nationalistic is a must, and try everything to defend one's own nation no matter what happens, knowing that there's nowhere to escape?
 
You mean, being discriminated and mistreated by foreign people/governments? After that someone realized to be patriotic and nationalistic is a must, and try everything to defend one's own nation no matter what happens, knowing that there's nowhere to escape?
I meant your comment describing the trends that red_elk has outligned as "okay" and then suggesting to emigrate (presumably to avoid those trends). It sounded very mean and no person that has truly suffered in life would post what you did.
 
I meant your comment describing the trends that red_elk has outligned as "okay" and then suggesting to emigrate (presumably to avoid those trends). It sounded very mean and no person that has truly suffered in life would post what you did.

Well, that's some empathy on my side, sorry. By "emigrating", I wasn't suggesting life in Russia is bad, or the trend in Russia is bad. I just pointed out that life standard in the west is higher than Russia, thus emigration will got an immediate gain.

I feel the same thing here in China, it's improving, but I still want to emigrate. To jump start life in a developed country seems a better choice than waiting my home country getting on par with western standard.
 
Well, that's some empathy on my side, sorry. By "emigrating", I wasn't suggesting life in Russia is bad, or the trend in Russia is bad. I just pointed out that life standard in the west is higher than Russia, thus emigration will got an immediate gain.
Its certainly not the impression I got from that post. I'm sure you can reformulate that ;)

I feel the same thing here in China, it's improving, but I still want to emigrate. To jump start life in a developed country seems a better choice than waiting my home country getting on par with western standard.
It can be a bit frustrating, but if China got on par with the "Western world" there won't be much resources to go on. We consume too much nowadays anyway. A more efficient and certainly less consumerist approach should work a lot better, both in China and other countries too.
 
You mean, he returned life expectancy back to the Soviet times, increasing it by 10 years?
Or reduced homicidal rate 4-5 times, returning it back to the Soviet times?
Reduced number of people addicted to drugs by orders of magnitude?
Restored industry, education, health care system, science - destroyed or half-destroyed by his predessors?
Not yet, we still have Freedom instead all of that.

:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

Nah, Russia is doing OK, but if I were you I would try emigration.

Given that Russia is the second biggest recipient of immigrants in the world, you have that the wrong way around
 
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