German Bundestag Election

i wonder how it is even debatable to renegotiate the current nuclear power phase-out. It was a gist in the successful election of the SPD/Green coalition. Both times! A consensus was formed and contracts negotiated. How is it possible that the contracts are negotiable, anyway?

Because there is a lot of money and energy to be gained? Why should something be set in stone for all eternity, just because a government that represented 48% percent of the votes said so?

Even today a majority is pro phase out. 53% are pro phase out, 26% pro extension of runtime of nuclear power plants and the rest is undecided. How could a government act so deliberately against those it should represent and who give the government its right of existence? Renegotiation is a kowtow before the energy companies, who still cling to their paradigm of nuclear power as a clean and cheap energy source, while at the same time increasing the prices for electricity.

Nuclear power is the reason why the price for electricity is as low as it is. If the energy companies have to pay 40 cent/kWh for electricity from photovoltaics they can hardly charge their customers 13 cent/kWh for it. And fossil fuels aren't getting cheaper either.

And that argument, that nuclear energy makes us more independent is a big eyewash.
Four mining corporations are producing 2/3 of the world wide amount of uranium. Only Romania and the Czech Rep are producing Uranium in Europe. In small amounts. There is no lucrative production of Uranium possible in Germany. And nobody takes into account the troubles this production brings with it: the dangers of Uranium transportation, the environmental damages - e.g. contamination of ground water and the surrounding area, the costs of the decontamination of the production area, the health problems and its costs due to production etc. By supporting npp we luckily relocate these problems to different countries. It shouldn't matter to us, if some Inuits in Canada or Indios in Brazil lose their habitats... :rolleyes: Then add the costs for the transportation of the plutonium garbage from France to Germany. These transports have to be secured due to protests and it costs about 20 million a year, a pissed off population and an overstrained police that acts against those it should protect. Why? Because the government couldn't reach consensus with its subjects.

Energy independence for Germany is a pipedream anyway. No matter, whether it is the uranium mines, coal mines, oil and gas wells or deserts: It's all elsewhere.

It's sad that the nuclear fearmongers have got the upper hand in Germany and that the population would rather have new coal plants instead of letting nuclear powerplants run longer. This issue is the one that a black-yellow coalition would get right (but I won't vote for them with my second vote for other reasons).
 
Don't be so relativistic. With such an attitude, you could never seriously discuss any matter.

Finally someone who sees behind my try to destroy this thread. ;-) Nevertheless, you distracted this one with the nucleat power debate quite largely.

One last word, Winner. With longterm, I didn't mean 50 years, I meant 50'000! ;-)
 
How about we ban all those non Germans from this thread so we can stop the nuclear power debate here...it's boring man
 
and what do you guys think about the recent taliban threat against Germany . . ? .. how should the "new" goverment approach this?
 
and what do you guys think about the recent taliban threat against Germany . . ? .. how should the "new" goverment approach this?

Send more troops and call it war.
I am really annoyed by this overdone pacifism. The invasion of Afghanistan was -in contrast to Kosovo or Iraq- necessary. Germany should have provided more troops from the start and not only in the north.

By the way: Is there anyone from Germany on this forum who wants CDU/FDP ?
 
and what do you guys think about the recent taliban threat against Germany . . ? .. how should the "new" goverment approach this?
Retreat. But that has nothing to do with the recent threat.
 
To give non-Germans a better insight into the political party landscape in Ger, you can check out this wahl-o-mat.

http://www.wahl-o-mat.de/bundestags...4967d518702916f4cb2c7d4064&servername=server7

You can chose your stance on certain issues and then the test will compare it with the parties' stances, so you can see with which party you agree the most.


About Afg- either pull out completely or finally send in a division and fulfill the duties.


One last word from me about nuclear power: it is arrogant to label those against nuclear power victims of fearmongering, because the phase out was the outcome of a 25 year long struggle with heated debates, pro and cons etc. The decision wasn't made in a day and out of pure fear. The country and the companies have already profited from the decision in designing new methods of producing energy. A result which would not have been achieved, if there was no pressure on the energy companies and no boosting of science in the sector of renewable energy.
 
The wahl-o-mat gives me more and more absurd results every time I use it. The last couple of years it always recommended the Greens with the SPD second.
This time I got the Pirate Party first and second place was a tie between FDP and MLPD, all parties I can't rally take seriously.
 
The wahl-o-mat gives me more and more absurd results every time I use it. The last couple of years it always recommended the Greens with the SPD second.
This time I got the Pirate Party first and second place was a tie between FDP and MLPD, all parties I can't rally take seriously.

I know...This year I had the DKP on top one time. I guess it vastly depends on the way you weigh your stances. And if your choices result in a solid 40/80 agreement with the top party, you know you are special ;)
 
One last word from me about nuclear power: it is arrogant to label those against nuclear power victims of fearmongering, because the phase out was the outcome of a 25 year long struggle with heated debates, pro and cons etc. The decision wasn't made in a day and out of pure fear. The country and the companies have already profited from the decision in designing new methods of producing energy. A result which would not have been achieved, if there was no pressure on the energy companies and no boosting of science in the sector of renewable energy.

I am not accusing all that are against nuclear power of fearmongering, there are valid arguments against nuclear power. But there is a lot of fearmongering going one, especially among the more radical opponents. Some of them seem to be immune to reason.

And speaking of renewable energy: the funds gained from letting the power plants longer would be very useful in energy research. Sadly the funding of research into alternative energy resource is pretty lackluster. If the oil price goes up, the funding is increased a bit, but once it's down again, so is the funding. Fusion research especially has seen a lot of scientists leave for greener pastures.
 
:hmm: my 2 €cents on the elections and the parties in general. While I don't like any of the choices this time around there are imho some that are less bad than others - and my absentee ballot is in already :mischief:

now for my views (warning: long post ahead ;))

Die Linke - their frequent name changes not withstanding they are the SED successor - and with a majority of members and (more importantly) acting personnel from the SED its really no use denying that. More importantly though: they do not want to govern this time around and have a program that is essentially unworkable - its not meant to be taken seriously, which is fine by me but won't win my vote. They might evolve into a real alternative on the left side within the next decade or so - but they need to lose Bisky and the other players left over from the SED/SED-PDS time. Right now they win on GDR nostalgia and leftist populism which on their own won't work in the long run. They do have some people that are much more pragmatic in their ways and with more and more states in which they actually do govern its just a matter of time until they are esablished programmatically to take part in federal government.

SPD:
They will not ever again get my vote as long as any cabinet member of the Schröder government is still playing any role in the party. Their anti-science campaign supercedes any and all of their other failures and achievements in my mind. The (now corrected) Hochschulrahmengesetz which aimed at removing all non-faculty science personnell after a max of 12 years was the single worst decision they made - driving vast numbers of scientists out of the country and for a almost 10 years making it neigh impossible to lure good people back to Germany. Of course Schröder himself being the most blatantly corrupt chancellor in German history (yes he even beat Kohl with his suitcases of money) doesn't help elevate them in my opinion. As for current policies: with an environment minister touting clean coal as the way to power Germany without nuclear plants they fail at one of their key portfolios: any politician touting clean coal for anything is incompetent and should be laughed out of office. Their other key portfolio (Health) is actually much better represented (even though Ulla Schmidt's knack for wasting public money on her vacations is one of the signs of cheap and blatant corruption that plagued the Schröder government) - they were quite succesful in getting their ideas passed and while I don't necessarily agree with all they did they get high marks for actually getting something moving - the health care system needs reform and we'll see over the next few years if they were right or wrong. As for the state of the party: they need to sort out whether they want to move left or right - not sure which would be best for them given the fact the the left has an almost established party now in addition to the Green party so that it starts getting crowded over there - I think a center-left position would be better for them since the center-left and center-right divisions haven't shifted in Germany since at least 1994 with both camps getting about 50% each and a few votes deciding the elections each time - getting votes from centrist voters is likely the better way to ensure center-left majorities than having 3 leftist parties battle it out - but whatever.

Greens:
I actually voted for them a few times despite their stance on the nuclear issue (nuclear plants can be decommissioned but people need to accept coal as the main source of power in Germany then - and while the SPD is just delusional there with clean coal the greens try to avoid the topic altogether - however some of their stated policies at least acknowledge a problem). They did have a chance of developing into a socially liberal but still market based party - unfortunately they kicked out most of their capitalist wing in recent years and have rather decided to compete with die Linke on economic issues and have become entrenched in their anti-genetics, anti-nuclear, anti-anythingnewingeneral ways of thinking with their key-personnel at the moment. They will change again and I am reasonably sure that with some parts of the party starting to think about governing along with the conservatives and/or FDP they are actually going to move more to the center and leave die Linke and the SPD to compete for the left fringe. Their civil liberties wing has been awfully silent for years now - in fact leaving much of the civil liberties discussion to the FDP which should be one of the policy fields where they should compete with them - Germany needs a social liberal (as in Sozialliberal) party and I'd vote for that. Right now they seem to be heading there again though.

CDU and its bavarian fringe sibling CSU:
will be in government after the elcetions - there is no real chance that the results will allow any other outcome. They moved left on economic issues quite a bit during the last 4 years - though with their economics minister they do still have some quite capitalist personnel in waiting - I don't expect any major changes on the social systems and economic policies with them though since Merkel seems intend to push the SPD out of the center and get her party to cover both sides of the center and leave the SPD to compete left of center. We'll see how it plays out. Their Interior minister's (Schäuble) view of civil liberties is as bad as his predecessor's (Schili) in that there are hardly any liberties that aren't threatened by his attempts at increasing the law enforcement powers. His frequent attempts at altering the constitution to allow German military to assist law enforcement are frightening and its heartening that the CDU/CSU will likely not gain votes this time around - but I fear the only way to get rid of these tendencies is dismantling the ministry of the Interior and getting people in there that actually give a damn about the Grundgesetz. Of course Schäuble's role as Kohl's deputy makes him much less likely to do so given his former boss's views of the oath of office - so a change there would be more than welcome though unfortunately unlikely no matter who joins the next government as junior partner.

FDP:
This time around the least bad imho (so all those Westerwelle haters: go vote - he already got mine so you need to counter that ;)). They did snatch the leadership in most civili liberties discussions in the last few years that the Greens should have taken, have some decent ideas in general science policies some unrealistic ideas on taxation which won't be enacted for the next four years since the federal government is mostly bankrupt and some reductions in the social programs actually will be necessary and they are among the only ones actually saying so - I don't expect much to happen there though since the CDU will likely not do anything too sweeping and in the health care sector at least will likely try to claim that the large reform has been done and needs time to work. We'll see how it plays out.

In summary: current politics in Germany suck - there are no really good alternatives - but the SPD being in turmoil they don't really present a viable basis for a functioning government and I very much feel that after 11 years in government need time in opposition to sort themselves out and shed the blatant corruption and anti-science personnel that pervaded the Schröder cabinet - as everything points to the CDU being the majority party again I'd rather have the FDP than the SPD as the junior partner in the next government.
 
In summary: current politics in Germany suck -

No, it doesn't. It may look so if you're not aware of what's happening abroad, but believe me - German politics is a civilized arena full of responsible and polite people compared to what's happening in this particular -stan :)
 
Godwynn, what the heck? So we keep progressing to media regulated elections? Oh boy. :help:

You really wanna move to Germany? --- Don't let the cleavage mislead you there. ;)
 
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