German Gunman Kills 15

[Shekwan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7936817.stm

Spoiler :

Fifteen people have been killed after a teenage gunman went on a rampage in south-west Germany, officials say.

Twelve of the dead were students and teachers at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart, police say.

The gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil, is also dead, but it is not clear whether he was shot or killed himself.

The teenager, who entered the school wearing black combat gear, died in a shoot-out 40km (25 miles) away.

See where the school shooting took place

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is to make a statement on the shooting at 1600 (1500 GMT), a government spokesman said.

'Supermarket shoot-out'

The governor of Baden-Wuerttemburg, Guenther Oettinger said police killed the suspect, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Regional radio station SWR said the suspect was killed during a shoot-out with police in a town called Wendlingen, about 40km (25 miles) away from the school.


GERMAN SCHOOL ATTACKS
2006: A former pupil injures 11 students at a school in western town of Emsdetten before turning the gun on himself.
2002: A former pupil kills 17 people in his school in the eastern city of Erfurt, then kills himself.

In pictures: School shooting
Timeline of school shootings

It said that he fled there in a car after the school shooting and barricaded himself in a supermarket.

There he shot dead two passers-by and two police officers were injured.

In total, nine students, three teachers and three passers-by are thought to be among the dead.

The chief reporter of the Stuttgart Journal newspaper, Kevin Latzel, told the BBC that there was a lot of confusion at the school.

"It's very horrible... the parents are crying, the pupils are crying and a lot of police is there and nobody knows really what happened," he said.

"They are very afraid, the pupils are calling their parents and the parents they want to pick [them] up but they can't do this, the parents they are not allowed to get into the classrooms," he added.

The attack is reported to have begun at about 0945 (0845 GMT).

The gunman "went into the school with a weapon and carried out a bloodbath", regional police chief Erwin Hetger said, the Associated Press news agency reported.

"I've never seen anything like this in my life," he said.

Witnesses said students jumped from the windows of the school after the gunman opened fire.

About 1,000 children are thought to attend the school, in the town some 20km (12 miles) north-east of Stuttgart.

I can't believe there isn't a thread about this already. It seems with the Finland attacks and now this, school shootings are just as common in Europe as the US. So perhaps it isn't gun control thats the problem? Could it be Video Games!?

Discuss. Whats causing these attacks and how should we address them?

 

[kronic]

So perhaps it isn't gun control thats the problem?

As a matter of fact, his parents legally own guns. And one of them is missing.

Could it be Video Games!?

 

[RedRalph]

Grim news alright... seems it is a phenomenon that is spreading form the US (as many cultural phenomenons do)

 

[kronic]

We already had such a big school shooting in the city of Erfurt in 2002 (on April 26th). Won't forget the date since it happened during my last written exam, only a few hundred meters away. 16 or 17 people died back then, the killer however was specifically targeting teachers.

 

[Shekwan]

Wow Kronic that must have been scary.

I bet the comparisons to Grand Theft Auto are being typed up as we discuss this... I mean he went there, shot up the place and drove away only to have a shootout with the police 20km away.

What these reactions always tend to omit is that GTA seeks to emulate crime so its only natural theres going to be similarities.

 

[kronic]

Wow Kronic that must have been scary.

I only took notice of it when my exam was finished. By then, it was already over. But I can imagine what will be going on in the city in the next weeks. Not to mention the unavoidable gathering of almost all important politicians...

 

[Mowque]

Are the numbers of school shootings actually increasing over the years or is it just because we have 24 hrs news services now?

 

[Dragonlord]

Yes, they've increased. Just reviewed a timetable of amoc style shootings (not necessarily only school shootings) because of today's school shooting in Winnenden. It's only about 20 km away from where I live in Stuttgart, so you can imagine it's all the news today...

If you look at the timetable - sorry, can't copy it - you see very few mass shootings prior to the 90's (like the Texas Tower Sniper for instance), and then, after Littleton, they've been steadily increasing.

Seems to me to be a copycat syndrome - the kids who are doing this all seem to be similar types who (extremely quick and dirty psychology here) seem to want to "go out with a bang". The very shock and media coverage seems to be what motivates them to go out and do the same thing...

And, IMHO, gun laws certainly do play a role. It seems the kids father, an industrialist, had a whole collection of firearms at home, one of which the kid 'borrowed'.

I can't understand why, under the restrictive German gun laws, this industrialist legally had a whole collection of firearms including at least one automatic weapon! This kind of mass shooting would be very much harder with, say, a normal handgun! Also, it wouldn't be as 'cool' in the eyes of these kids - letting a 17 year old habitual 'first person shooter' addict get his paws on a machine gun is really asking for it, IMHO!!!

I'm sure I'm not the only German who is asking this, we'll be hearing more about this I'm sure...

 

[kronic]

On a sidenote: why is it that policemen seem to be unable to make the right decisions in such situations? In that Erfurt incident in 2002, one policeman was shot dead because he marched towards the school without any cover and any protection; another one was wounded. This time around, two policemen were killed and another two wounded in that final shooting at a post office. By just one teenager.

 

[raketooy]

Just that you know, the US is number one in world in gun ownership and Finland is third. Not sure about this case but I think that relaxed gun laws do contribute to school shootings.

 

[amadeus]

Grim news alright... seems it is a phenomenon that is spreading form the US (as many cultural phenomenons do)

Violence existed long before the U.S.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Whats causing these attacks?

Psychos with guns?

and how should we address them?

Lock up everybody you might even suspect of being a dangerous psycho?

While growing up I've probably met over a dozen kids I though were capable of doing something like this, and I bet all of you have too. Some of them are downright scary, but there's not a whole lot you can do unless you believe in prosecuting precrime. If you are smart, you just try to stay away from them so you won't be part of the collateral damage. But in a school environment you occasionally don't have much choice.

I was playing WoW yesterday when a guild initiate suddenly announced that he would be right back after he beat up his girlfriend's kid. Everybody online started whispering each other "wtf?". One guild member responded "Don't do it". The only officer on told him that sort of message was inappropriate for guild chant. I whispered him back "Hello 911? There's a guy playing WoW who may be killing someone." When he got back from apparently beating the heck out of him, he claimed to be 26 and the 'kid' was 18 after the officer told him that he had 6 kids, and that this sort of behavior was unacceptable. A few minutes later, he announced he was going to do it again. The officer responded more forcefully that such a message was simply not acceptable for guild chat, and that stronger measures would be taken if it happened again. Later that night, he logged back on after a guild raid had already formed, flew into a temper tantrum, and demanded that we kick a tryout so he could attend. /gkick.

Violence existed long before the U.S.

yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mass_murderers

 

[Dragonlord]

On a sidenote: why is it that policemen seem to be unable to make the right decisions in such situations? In that Erfurt incident in 2002, one policeman was shot dead because he marched towards the school without any cover and any protection; another one was wounded. This time around, two policemen were killed and another two wounded in that final shooting at a post office. By just one teenager.

Looks like you got some wrong information - no wonder, with conflicting stories on the radio all day. SPIEGEL online says none of the people killed were policemen - 2 policemen were wounded, yes, but none killed.
Also, the wounded police were a normal patrol, not SEK (Sondereinsatzkommando - German version of a SWAT team) so they were probably not wearing body armor, and had only normal handguns.
One teenager with a machinegun wounding 2 policemen with handguns doesn't seem so far-fetched to me..

BTW, there are conflicting infos what weapon he was actually using - the radio just repeated he had a machine gun, SPIEGEL says he had a Beretta, which I would infer is an handgun, not a machine gun.

 

[Dragonlord]

What I find remarkable is how exactly this kid seems to fit the profile of other school shooters: 17, failed his exam at that school a year ago, plays shooter games all day, a loner...
How in the world could his father allow him to get his hands on a gun, even a machine gun, if the reports are correct?
Granted, no one can predict whether a kid like this will really freak out or not - but if I had been his father, I sure as heck wouldn't have tempted him by leaving any of my guns lying around...

 

[Bugfatty300]

Beretta makes/made several kinds of submachine guns and assault rifles.

 

[Grisu]

up to 16 dead now crap

Seems to me to be a copycat syndrome - the kids who are doing this all seem to be similar types who (extremely quick and dirty psychology here) seem to want to "go out with a bang". The very shock and media coverage seems to be what motivates them to go out and do the same thing...

yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that played a role.

And, IMHO, gun laws certainly do play a role. It seems the kids father, an industrialist, had a whole collection of firearms at home, one of which the kid 'borrowed'.

I said it before in these threads and I'll say it again. Someone who legally owns a gun should be charged with at least 'Fahrlässige Tötung' (I'm not sure what that maps to in english, probably negligient homicide) if their gun was used to kill, unless he took proper precautions (and that includes taking all reasonable steps to keep the gun from his teenage son).

I can't understand why, under the restrictive German gun laws, this industrialist legally had a whole collection of firearms including at least one automatic weapon! This kind of mass shooting would be very much harder with, say, a normal handgun!

yeah, that sounds rather surprising. I assume by automatic you mean full automatic?

 

[GoodGame]

Grim news alright... seems it is a phenomenon that is spreading form the US (as many cultural phenomenons do)

Yes we barbarians export insanity. Europe was totally sane, never engaging in violence the whole 20th C even.
/sarcasm

 

[Dragonlord]

yeah, that sounds rather surprising. I assume by automatic you mean full automatic?

The media seem to be confused on this - the radio specifically called it a machine gun (Maschinengewehr) several times, Spiegel just said a Beretta, just now they called it "automatische Waffe" on the radio, which could be either a machinegun or an automatic handgun, which would fit the "Beretta"

At first I believed the machine gun version, but I'm tending to believe it was probably an automatic handgun and the media don't know their a** from their elbow regarding firearms..

 

[Till]

What I find remarkable is how exactly this kid seems to fit the profile of other school shooters: 17, failed his exam at that school a year ago, plays shooter games all day, a loner...
How in the world could his father allow him to get his hands on a gun, even a machine gun, if the reports are correct?
Granted, no one can predict whether a kid like this will really freak out or not - but if I had been his father, I sure as heck wouldn't have tempted him by leaving any of my guns lying around...

He actually graduated with Mittlerer Reife, according to the Innenminister.

 

[scherbchen]

Seems to me to be a copycat syndrome - the kids who are doing this all seem to be similar types who (extremely quick and dirty psychology here) seem to want to "go out with a bang". The very shock and media coverage seems to be what motivates them to go out and do the same thing...

this pretty much has been my opinion since the first school shooting in Germany.