Germany Changes Poll

[pineappledan]

We have been talking about Germany a lot lately in the Leader Balance thread. I wanted to gauged community interest in some changes to the UA and UU.

Germany came up in 4 different users' bottom 3 for civ designs, so it seems there is at least some agreement that Germany as it exists now is a bit lackluster.

Spoiler Perceived issues with the German UA :

• Overall it is a fairly weak UA, not highly interactive, and compares badly to Austria.
  • There are only 2 civs that get extra World Congress votes in their UA, and they both happen to be culturally Germanic. It is strange that both civs are so similar in this and other respects.
  • Austria potentially gets an extra vote per Diplomatic Marriage while Germany gets 0.33 per ally. It is immediately apparent that Germany's UA is weaker by comparison
  • Add to this that Germany's extra votes are non-permanent, conditional on maintaining allied status. In contrast, Austria's extra votes are permanent
  • In addition to getting fewer votes, Germany's UA also does not help you maintain allied status while Austria's UA helps you in 2 separate ways: freezing influence decay and doubling influence from quests.
• The UA does not live up to "Realpolitik" as an idea
  • Realpolitik is synonymous with pragmatism, but this is not reflected by any change in playstyle for Germany; they are only concerned with getting as many CS allies as possible, which is the standard diplomatic victory style with no additional triggers, mechanics, or incentives.
  • If anything, Austria is more effective at playing a pragmatic diplomatic game, because her UA ability allows Austria to lose diplomatic allies without losing her extra vote. Austria can cut her losses if there is stiff competition for the favor of certain city-states. Meanwhile, Germany has to compete for city-states in the same way, and with the same tools as any other civ.
• It gives Golden Age Points for no readily apparent reason.
  • Germany is not in any other respect a golden age-focused civ. It gets no additional bonuses for triggering golden ages, or any synergy with more frequent golden ages.

Spoiler Perceived issues with the German Panzer UU :

• The Panzer comes too late
  • The probability of Germany falling too far behind to come back or being eliminated completely by the time their UU comes out is higher than for any other civ. All civs start on equal footing on turn 1. The gap between score leaders widens with each era and all other civs have their UU unlocked at least 1 full era before the Panzer.
  • The 'fix' for this issue is that the Panzer has been made so powerful in its era that subduing Germany before Modern is a typical counter to their kit. This means that the greatest counter to Germany's UU is to deny them the use of it. This impoverishes the game overall, because the possibility of seeing and fighting against a diversity of units is more enjoyable than fighting a potentiality of a strong future unit.
  • The Panzer is active during the same time as the ideology units, which are functionally UUs as well. So this means Germany is the only civ whose UU is competing for oxygen with ideology UUs.
• The Panzer kinda sucks
  • So first off, even the civilopedia article for the Panzer UU cops to the reality that German tanks in WWII were pretty rubbish. Their arms and armour were weak, they were a nightmare to repair and maintain, and a whole host of other issues both on the production side and in the field. If Germany is to have 1 unique unit to represent its long and illustrious military history, it probably shouldn't be one that everyone softly agrees is actually pretty bad.
  • The Panzer is non-specific. The civilopedia article goes even farther, and is evasive about which specific design the Panzer UU even represents, preferring to emphasize the Germans' combined arms tactics and generals (if you're curious, the unit model is of a Tiger I heavy tank). This is the only UU from later eras that doesn't specifically name the unit's design; it would be equivalent to calling the Zero a Sentoki (the Japanese word for fighter plane).
  • Tanks are so late that VP moved the Panzer to Ballistics in the Modern Era. The Modern Era is equivalent to WWI, so this makes the Panzer an anachronism in its unlock spot. It also makes the Landship only 1 tech line sooner, meaning Germany effectively skips the landship entirely.
  • Lastly, the in-game panzer has next-to-nothing to do with real-world Panzers. They get Armor Plating II, +5 CS, and an early unlock. German Panzers were notoriously flimsy, with weak armour and small guns, and they were not pioneers in tank design, trailing the British, Russians and French in the deployment of effective, powerful new tanks.
• It double-dips on Nazis.
  • I get that people are very excited about the Nazis existing in any historical-based game, but the Third Reich has most of an entire ideology tree based on it. Using 1 of Germany's 3 precious component slots for more fascist stuff is maybe overdoing it.

Spoiler New UA proposal :

UA - Realpolitik

+3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Gain Science and Culture, scaling with Era, and Influence with all City-States for each World Congress Resolution you help pass or defeat.

Advantages

• Instead of giving you more votes, rewards you more for splitting your votes to all 3 WC proposals, and winning. Be decisive in the votes that you can influence, and try to vote with the majority on the votes you cannot influence.
• Rewards you for a different playstyle, and for actively bargaining with civs via vote-trading and other tactics
• Differentiates Germany from Austria better
  • Does not copy Austria by also giving more WC votes
  • Instead of making passing resolutions easier like Austria, it rewards you passing resolutions (winning easier vs winning more)
• Gives Germany a trait with a unique reward: Instant lump sum, scaling Influence with all CS globally
  • Austria has a % bonus CS influence for quests with single CS at a time
  • Siam has a flat lump sum of influence with each CS at a time
• Is more "pragmatic"
  • Levels the bonuses for friends and allies so that you aren't even more rewarded for allies, above and beyond the standard rewards
  • Forces players to assess voting more strategically and guess the AI's priorities, rather than the traditional dumping of WC votes into the single proposal you most want to pass/fail.

Spoiler Return of the Landsknecht UU proposal :

We propose to make the Landsknecht the main UU of Germany again.
A new unit -- the Free Company (on the left) -- will take the Landsknecht's current position as the Authority Finisher melee unit available at Steel (purely a cosmetic change; no gameplay impact for the new Free Company unit)

Landsknecht would then be turned into a Tercio unit, with some new unit models that add harquebusiers and Zweihanders to the original halberdiers (unit on the right).

UU - Landsknecht (replaces Tercio)
Unlocked at Guilds (1 tech earlier than Gunpowder)
280 Production (down from 300)
Unit maintenance cost per turn increased by 1
25 CS
2 Moves
Formation I
Formation II
Doppelsöldner (+30% CS when attacking a unit with full health)
Has no Purchase Cooldown
Can move immediately and has full XP when Purchased (like a Mercenary Unit)

Advantages:

• Earlier than the Panzer, so it's more likely Germany will get to use it
• Already exists -- the Vanilla game didn't have a Tercio unit class, but Germany already had a Landsknecht
• Combines with the Hanse for a combined production and gold advantage for an effective Medieval and Renaissance army
• Actually has a reason to come earlier, unlike the Panzer -- The Landsknecht were pike and shot units that predated the Spanish tercios by >100 years
• The Free Company also has better historicity:
  • The Free Companies are less culturally specific, which is more suitable for a general policy finisher unit
  • Free Companies were most active during the 12th to 15th centuries, whereas the Landknecht were between the 15th and 17th centuries, which puts them squarely in the Renaissance by most standards. So these German pike & shot mercenaries unlocking in early Medieval was always iffy.

Moderator Action: Changed last poll choice to "I dislike the new Landsknecht proposal, but I don't like the Panzer either" (was "I like", clearly a typo). - Recursive

 

[AndreyK]

Seems the last choice should be DISlike. I think 3 science per friend is too much, should be made at least 2.

 

[looorg]

I assume that last option should be a dislike to? While I dont mind the proposed Landsknecht idea it's sort of sad that we are losing a late game unique unit then. Everybody wants to be powerful early.That part / era of the tech tree is getting a tad crowded with uu:s isnt it?

What are the implications for 34uc? I prefer the whole Arminius / raising barbarian army thing.

 

[pineappledan]

Oops. Yes, DIS-like. I can't edit it, so everyone use your imaginations.

The current bonus is 33 per friend and 33 per ally, scaling with Era, so that part is technically weaker in this new proposal without the GAPs.
I don't know what the best levels are for the instant and per-turn bonuses for the UA, so I just kept that part the same for now.

What are the implications for 34uc? I prefer the whole Arminius / raising barbarian army thing.

The Ulhedinn in 4UC doesn't really carry any functional bonuses forward, and the Teutonic order is off on its own. So these changes wouldn't change the 4UC, unless Germany's power is significantly altered overall.

 

[looorg]

The Ulhedinn in 4UC doesn't really carry any functional bonuses forward, and the Teutonic order is off on its own. So these changes wouldn't change the 4UC, unless Germany's power is significantly altered overall.

While it does carry forward per say a couple of them will create you an entire army that depending on playsytle will live thru the ages and those barb units you convert keep all their promotions forever. I really like it, which is sort of why I never got really into this whole Germany is weak and bad hurpdurp discussion.

With 4uc Germany was/is great early then sort of meh in the middle and then had a late uu, compared to most others. In some regard I think I would prefer boosting the Panzer instead.

 

[InkAxis]

I think 4UC balance is something pdan can address, that shouldn't affect too much how we make base VP changes.
I will note for pdan though that when I've played against germany he always has an absolutely massive army, even after the ancient era.

Nothing much to say otherwise, after thinking about these changes and the long discussion I voted yes.

 

[pineappledan]

While it does carry forward per say a couple of them will create you an entire army that depending on playsytle will live thru the ages and those barb units you convert keep all their promotions forever. I really like it, which is sort of why I never got really into this whole Germany is weak and bad hurpdurp discussion.

With 4uc Germany was/is great early then sort of meh in the middle and then had a late uu, compared to most others. In some regard I think I would prefer boosting the Panzer instead.

as @InkAxis said, I don’t want 4UC to colour the perception of the base VP components. A minority of players use that mod, so it’s not generative to bring it up when considering base VP design. You are correct in pointing out that germany’s 4UC additions round out Germany’s kit. Indeed, the extra components in 4UC were specifically chosen by the modding collaborators to address the shortcomings of Germany’s excessively late base components. Even more reason not to consider them when judging this proposal.

 

[usadefcon1]

I don’t want 4UC to colour the perception of the base VP components. A minority of players use that mod

Really? I just assumed most people used it, it makes the game much more interesting.

Gameplay wise I get getting rid of the Panzer, but I also really like the art. Is it possible to keep just the art?

 

[bahamut19]

I assume that last option should be a dislike to? While I dont mind the proposed Landsknecht idea it's sort of sad that we are losing a late game unique unit then. Everybody wants to be powerful early.That part / era of the tech tree is getting a tad crowded with uu:s isnt it?

I second this. Having all of the UU crowded around the same eras ruins some of the strategy and uniqueness VP as a whole can offer. Now the new Realpolitik UA does seem like it would be worth the shot trying.

 

[azum4roll]

Does Doppelsöldner stay on upgrade?

 

[pineappledan]

Really? I just assumed most people used it, it makes the game much more interesting.

Gameplay wise I get getting rid of the Panzer, but I also really like the art. Is it possible to keep just the art?

Whether this goes through or not, we will have the panzer in the game somewhere. Stay tuned!

Does Doppelsöldner stay on upgrade?

yes

 

[chicorbeef]

I like the new German UA proposal. Just one thing though, do you think it should just be on passing proposals and not on defeating them? Because with this proposal, you could just dedicate one vote to something you don't care about and get yields, right? But if it's on passing, then there is an incentive to be more strategic about which proposals to support.

 

[pineappledan]

I like the new German UA proposal. Just one thing though, do you think it should just be on passing proposals and not on defeating them? Because with this proposal, you could just dedicate one vote to something you don't care about and get yields, right? But if it's on passing, then there is an incentive to be more strategic about which proposals to support.

for clarification, the bonus triggers if you are on the “winning side” of a vote. So if you vote “no” but the resolution passes, you don’t get yields.

so you are rewarded for voting “correctly” in all 3 resolutions per session, but splitting your votes among all 3 reduces your power to influence the 1 you most care about.

 

[InkAxis]

for clarification, the bonus triggers if you are on the “winning side” of a vote. So if you vote “no” but the resolution passes, you don’t get yields.

so you are rewarded for voting “correctly” in all 3 resolutions per session, but splitting your votes among all 3 reduces your power to influence the 1 you most care about.

Just like to say in the OP you say "When helping pass or defeat a Resolution", maybe should be "When *successfully* helping pass or defeat a Resolution"

 

[azum4roll]

Just like to say in the OP you say "When helping pass or defeat a Resolution", maybe should be "When *successfully* helping pass or defeat a Resolution"

It's the same as the diplo opinion wordings, I think.

 

[Solic]

I like having some lategame UU's for variety. The new UA proposal is fine as long as the WC AI is good enough. I know there have been some improvements, but sometimes I still find myself wondering about specific proposals/votes. In those latter situations, I'd be displeased about having my success as a civ rely on that more.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Rewards you for a different playstyle, and for actively bargaining with civs via vote-trading and other tactics

Forces players to assess voting more strategically and guess the AI's priorities, rather than the traditional dumping of WC votes into the single proposal you most want to pass/fail.

This is far away from every reality. You didn't have the time to play around with the world congress.
Everything you do in late game to achieve a diplomatic victory is spamming hegemony requests over city states. And normally you dump everything you have into that one proposal to be 100% sure to let it pass and secure CSs against other civs. With that proposes UA I would gain the most if I still do, what I ever do. Dump every vote I have into CS hegemony requests....
It's literally: Copy the reformation belief "yield gain for passing a proposal" and the enhancer(?) belief "gain influence over all CS for using a GP". That's not new, nor in any way creative.
There would be also such strange situations, that I could gain science and culture, if I vote for my own trade ban. How in God's name could you explain that with a real world example? This UA is far from everything Germany stands or is known.
Germany is sacrificed for the sake of having not too few diplomatic victory civs, even Germany is in real a civ which qualifies for a late game warmonger or at least be a Jack of all trades without any preference.
Who not making Germany an India, but instead with Food and Growth with Industry and science?

 

[Asterix Rage]

Instead of giving you more votes, rewards you more for splitting your votes to all 3 WC proposals, and winning.

Sure we will be able to do that, sometimes. But does AI will?
(Probably the most important question when civ designing...)

 

[DeAnno]

I know there's some concern about the placement of the Landsknecht, and I even shared it when thinking about it. But you have to remember at least it isn't yet another Cavalry (or one tech before/after) UU. I actually use Tercios, and the early unlock has potential to be interesting.

I'm not crazy about the -20 and +1 though, seems kinda like much ado over nothing.

 

[Milae]

Actually I'm not sure about these changes. You know way more about history than me so feel free to correct me but here's my thoughts.

UA - I'm not sure what the reason is for Germany being a diplo orientated civ, maybe very recently they are known for that in the EU but before then I thought they were known for being efficient and doing things mostly on their own.
However from a game balance point of view I think the +3 science and culture would be better if it actually got better when you went from friend to ally. So either +1 of both for friend and +2 both for ally or +2 science for friend and +2 both for ally (all scaling with era.
Then Germany just needs something which gives a small amount of extra influence to help you get friend/ally more consistently at the start, like the ulfhedir with UC, so perhaps just +1 influence per turn from trade routes with city states scaling with era.
The 1 delegates from 3 allies is rubbish as you mention. Even 1 in 2 would still be bad and uninteresting.

UU - I'm sure you are correct about the panzer historically but from a gameplay perspective it actually kinda works. It is late but ballistics is much earlier than combined arms and it can absolutely conquer the entire world for you which feels like what Germany is known for trying to do and it's quite unique to Civ as most other conquering civs have early UUs. If anything it's too strong since tanks are already too good and panzers are a big upgrade.

Basically I'm not against a rework but I think Germany would still be a fun civ with just some small buffs to the UA.