Germany Domination/Diplomatic Strategy (Deity)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by murd, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. murd

    murd Chieftain

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    Hi, I don't reall post here, but I read through some stuff and thought I would share a super cool strategy that I have been using with Germany. Germany is in my opinion one of the best civilizations in the game- of course poland, maya, babylon, korea, persia, but then I think Germany belongs right after that along with like Arabia and stuff.

    First: What makes Germany good? Why this strategy for Germany and not for someone else? I think it is fairly obvious.

    1.) Recruit barbarians- super cool ability that makes early war a lot easier. I think picking up a few units is probably equivalent or better to Persia's Representation golden age (although a bit luck dependent based on what you get - but I will cover that.)

    2.) Less Maintenance - huge deal. Gives you lots of gold to buy stuff, very consistent bonus, very effective bonus, lasts all game long. I checked about t 50 of my last gam with Germany, had 11 in unit maintenance - was saving me 4 or 4 gpt that early on, only grows larger later on. I don't really know how to quantify how bigt his impact is, but I know it does a lot throughout the game.

    3.) Hanse- totally nuts, hands down best unique building in the game in my opinion. Just spam caravans and ships at cs and get of production (and a fair amount of gold.) So easy to use, so effective at churning out massive military..

    4.) Panzer- tanks are good at ending games, panzers are better. Spam these thanks to hanses and then just slam them into city states- after biology go straight to it imo (dont bother with plastics/radio right then.)

    So as you can see, Germany has crazy bonuses. Also they are really focused... towards military, production, and gold... which brings me into social policies:

    Honor: open honor because you can kill barbs easier, and add them to your forces. Go straight down the right side and then go through the left - the -33% upgrade cost should be abused to upgrade 6-8 archers to comp bows for 50 gold each. Military caste also gives lots of culture and a bit of happiness so you dont have to go out of your way to get stupid crap like calendar or sailing to hook up every last luxury. Honor finisher gives you gold which comes into play later...

    Note: park brutes you capture in cities for military caste. If you don't get any, then you are getting things to kill with, which is better. In that case, just use scouts or your warrior if you didn't find a spear ruin.

    Commerce: more gold =more unit buying. it's super powerful. Also gives some happiness... not much to say here. Make sure you get big ben and then you can buy panzers pretty cheap. Also landskechts upgrade cheap thanks to professional army, which is something I guess.

    Autocracy- need industrial espionage, and also lightning warfare makes panzers even better. Past that go for happiness tenets, and reduced maintenance costs. You won't have too much culture unless your capture some wonderwhoring culture city (Thebes, Rio, etc.) so policies will be limited.

    Go to first war after 6-8 comp bows, maybe 1-2 handaxe, catapult if terrain is good for it. Also 2 spears for capture. Continue once you get machinery, or turtle on until late game.

    Tech order: mining, archery, construction, philosophy (nc after first war is good, machinery, education, economics, biology, combined arms.)


    If for whatever reason domination isn't gonna work, diplomatic should be doable with all of your gold. If you see this early on, freedom for the +influence for cs trade routes i not a bad idea.

    Try to settle 2 cities besides cap by turn 60 or so, do not use gold for anything but upgrading archers early on.

    Build order (capital): scout, scout, monument, archer, archer, settlers/archers/spearman, maybe catapult, infrastructure.

    dont even bother with faith or religion or whatever - you wont have anything good to buy faith with.
     
  2. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Germany really does have great advantages, and they will always be close to my heart because I love their style, and I had my first Deity win with them - which funnily enough was an aborted Domination into Diplomatic victory.

    But since then, I've come to realise that any civ can do this. Any civ can go H-C-A and end up with an Industrial conquest machine, that can be stopped at any time. In fact, you can win Culture or Science, as well as Diplomacy, when you are the most powerful civ left in the game.

    In my own Tier list, I put them towards the bottom of the 2nd Tier, ahead of China and Sweden (who are both still great, of course), but behind the other more competent warmongers. The Panzer is brutal but comes very late. Whereas the other warmongers above it have either UUs which can end the game earlier, or crazy UAs which make the domination sweep much, much easier.

    Your mini-guide is pretty sound in general, in my view, but as far as religion goes, I'd say you are half-right. I agree people shouldn't bother founding their own, but you will still end up with a huge amount of faith by conquering the AI capitals, no?
     
  3. BurnBabyBurn

    BurnBabyBurn Warlord

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    Interesting...

    China has a better UU and I like Papermakers, plus the GG bonus's and as for 25% of your army maintenance... that's nice but the barb recruitment is depending on the situation. I only play Deity~Dom and Germany has given me some close calls. I am not adept as some players are. I would say that I would trade the Panzer for a nice Middle Ages UU or even early era UU. Or how about a huge Forest Bonus(like 50% combat strength in Rough or Forest terrain) the Germans wiped out a Roman Legion there.

    The Germans are far behind the Huns or other great Civs for early conquest. If the map or terrain doesn't suite she is just another Civ with nothing all that special. IMHO

    Though I am not that impressed with Babylon(aside Science) nor Poland(though people swear by both)

    I think that the Aztecs are as good as Poland(if you're a warmonger cause you will hack up the Culture) and Babylon's UU becomes obsolete on Deity fast.
     
  4. Peter Sagan

    Peter Sagan Warlord

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    Planting a GS after researching Writing makes you tech much faster, so you can get CB's and especially Xbows much faster. That's why they are God-tier, even for DomV, not only for SV.
     
  5. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    China vs. Germany in a side-by-side comparison is interesting. Before having a few games experience my thoughts were where yours are, that China pwns Germany. But after more experience, I find Germany to be at least as good if not better.

    The UU of China is obviously better. It comes earlier, applies to one of the highest value base units, and provides an excellent advantage that carries through upgrades. Having tanks with an extra move and more combat strength is very valuable but much of the game has been decided by that point. China's UU is also resource-free whereas Germany's needs a resource that has multiple applications (while horses apply to only the era-specific horse unit and coal applies only to factories with excess making ironclads, oil has to be divided into how many tanks, battleships, and 2 varieties of air units you want.)

    The UB for China also comes earlier and that extra 3 gold (+2gold PLUS 1gpt in saved maintenance) often is the difference between a black or red economy. However, although the German UB comes later it is absolutely devastating. A little extra gold exclusively from the trade routes sent to you is nice, probably about the same amount as China's economic bonus - for wider empires China would be superior, but with fewer cities Germany would probably be better...
    ...but that's just economics. The 5% production bonus applied to ALL cities (assuming all cities have a hanse, which they will because this bonus is so great) per trade route is obscenely powerful. While it forces you to not use as many internal trade routes (not as big of a factor on deity as it is on lower levels) and, more importantly, forces you to send routes to CS's instead of civs (and lose the crucial research bonus), the production bonus compensates and then some... and then some more! This ends up being a 40% production bonus by the end, 50% if you get the two wonders that give trade routes. And a 50% production bonus is by far the best civ-specific production bonus in the game, absolutely dwarfing Russia, Attila, and the Iroquois.

    The two UA's are both very good and hard to compare. China's is more straightforward because you know exactly what you're getting, and it's very good - GG's essentially make every Chinese unit a UU. Also, especially on deity, China has citadels everywhere. The German UA is more ambiguous but I find it to be at least as useful. The problem with deity games is that there's so much to build so quickly, especially when trying to remain competitive with the AI (or at least give them enough of a reason not to attack you.) As such, I (and many of us) have to make production sacrifices in all areas to get what we need rather than what we want: wonders are out of the question, infrastructure is streamlined, and units are usually the minimum required to prevent war. As such, with Germany I'll often have double or triple the total number of units that I otherwise would have, sometimes more.

    So, IMO, the UA is pretty much a wash, China's is easier to use but Germany's has higher potential. The UU favors China, and by a healthy margin. But the UB is so powerful for Germany that I think it sways judgement to their favor. But to each his own...

    Also, I love your comment about the Aztecs and I vehemently want it to be true, but it just isn't. The Aztecs have been my favorite civ since Civ5 vanilla came out, and they haven't changed them at all. They're also one of the most powerful, a good culture bonus and an incredible growth bonus. They're also one of the most interesting because while many civs have advantages to going to war, very few have advantages from going to war - pretty much just Songhai, Assyria, arguably Sweden and the Aztecs, but the Aztecs is the best. And I've tried to make the same Aztec/Poland argument, but it always fails because it simply isn't the case.
     
  6. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    This is an interesting observation to me! I would note that Songhai and Assyria only get their advantage from going to war by taking cities. Aztec just need to be killing, not taking cities, so that adds some flexibility. For Sweden, are you thinking of the GG generating for gifting to CS? (If so, they don't even need to be killing, just fighting.) I would add Celts to this short list since Pictish Warriors (and when upgraded to Pikes and Lancers, etc.) spawn faith. Also, any civ pursuing Honor also gets an advantage (gold) from going to war (again, for killing units, not necessarily but not taking cities per se).

    You have a few UU and civs that get bonus to generating GG points -- but that is again an advantage to going to war rather than a yield from warring. Also, the Ideology war tenets are mostly about advantages to war rather benefits from war. One exception is the Autocracy Tourism tenet -- which just requires being at war and not even killing.

    Are there other examples of rewards from warmongering that above the usual benefits?
     
  7. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Exactly. The Swedish UA has two components that are almost mutually exclusive (see below.) The gifting of great people for 90 influence is a great advantage at first glance, but is pretty limited on further inspection because most great people have better uses than 90 influence:

    Scientists: both early academies and late game bulbs are much better than 90 influence
    Engineers: free wonder is better than 90 influence
    Merchant: 30 influence plus up to 2000 gold (late game with commerce policy) is better than 90 influence - you can buy 160 + the original 30, more than doubling the Swedish gift bonus
    Writers: early works or later culture bulbs are better than 90 influence
    Artists: early works or later GAs are better than 90 influence.

    Which leaves just:
    Musicians: if you're not going for a culture victory and have sufficient cultural defense, they are good CS gifts.
    Prophets: First two prophets obviously found and enhance, but every other one can spread 3 times and then gift to CS - kind of an exploit but effective as such.
    Generals and Admirals: after you have as many as you need, they make good CS gifts.

    SO, with musicians coming late and Prophets having such highly escalating costs, GG's and Gad's are the option that lets you milk the most out of the advantage. The reason why I say that the two Swedish advantages are almost mutually exclusive is because the other advantage is +10% GP generation to all classes (except prophets, not 100% sure about GG/GAd generation) of great people per friendship. Depending on map settings, this can double the amount of GP. But since friendship is difficult to maintain while you're warring with others (unless you're one of the diplomacy masters), generating lots of GG/GAd is not going to happen while you have multiple DoFs.

    As far as civs/situations that benefit from warring, the Aztecs are the easiest to utilize because, as you said, if's from attacking units, not cities. Also, it's any unit, so barbs count, AI units count, CS units count, everything counts. Assyria gets no advantage from attacking any units, barb encampments, or CS units or cities (need verification: pretty sure Assyria can't UA-steal a tech from a CS.) Songhai get no bonus attacking units, just AI cities, barb camps, and CS cities - and while a fat lump of gold is quite useful, it's nothing compared to big chunks of culture every single turn or some free techs. The other consideration is warmongering penalties - taking cities (unless liberating, which is situational and out of your control) builds up warmongering penalty so the more you utilize the Assyrian or Songhai advantage, the more you suffer from it. The Aztec (and, to a lesser extent the Swedish) bonus comes with marginal to no warmongering penalty, especially if you feign weakness to allow someone to attack you and are supposedly "on defense."
     
  8. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Did this change? I made a note way back when the Celts were first introduced that Pictish warriors maintain their foreign lands promotion on upgrade but lose the faith bonus. I've pretty much ignored the units due to this. I often get Civil Service so shortly after Bronze Working, in fact I often get it before. Pikes with the foreign lands promotion are great at first, OK during the latter part of their effectiveness window. And we all pretty much agree that pikes have a poor upgrade path.
     
  9. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Apologies, I made that up! Per the Civilization Guide: Celts:
     
  10. Cornhog

    Cornhog Warlord

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    Why autocracy? It seems objectively worse than the other two in all things. I played a game last night and, after conquering a couple of culture whores, managed to get the entire tree. It was lackluster. What are you getting from it that you couldn't get better or nearly better from the other two?
     
  11. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    More subjective than objective. Spending culture to get 2 tenets in autocracy can yield 9 happiness per city, which is more than either of the other trees can do with only two tenets (although Freedom's universal suffrage plus capitalism is close.) More importantly regarding the strategy noted above, mobilization is one of three tools that reduces the cost of gold-purchasing units. When combined with mercantilism (commerce) and Big Ben (unlocked by commerce, SP-locked wonder so it's somewhat feasible even on deity), unit costs are a small fraction of what they are, allowing the player to gold-purchase many units every turn. Also, Clausewitz seems mediocre on paper but is quite powerfulin practice; 50 turns early game goes quickly, but late game it seems to go on forever. Then you have tanks with more than a half dozen moves... Lots of other goodies in there. By no means superior than either of the other two, but not dwarfed by them either.
     

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