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Germany needs a buff: my ideas

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by lordsurya08, Apr 24, 2011.

  1. Gallean88

    Gallean88 Squid Gynaecologist

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    Germany already has 2 UUs, so maybe the UA shouldn't be militarily focused. After all, Germany is the birthplace of so many great composers and artists and writers. Perhaps:

    Every culture point a city produces contributes extra great person production percentage.

    For instance, if a city with a temple and monument is producing 5 culture per turn, this would give it extra 5% Great Person production. Maybe even 2% per point of culture could be worked out. Either way, it would be a pretty unique UA that would acknowledge Germany's massive contributions to the arts and sciences.
     
  2. Teagen

    Teagen Warlord

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    Have it something to do with Puppet states...relating to the fractioned holy roman empire and all the mini-nations in it.

    I'd say you can choose what buildings Puppet states make, but can't make units from it. Or give them the option to turn a annexed city back to a puppet city or something.
     
  3. pickle

    pickle Lord of the Preserves

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    The only time I played Germany their UA was amazing, had a huge army of free units and if I had thought to raze any cities would have got even more.

    panzers are only pointless because tanks are pointless, when an upgraded mech inf is a lot better, that said, with charge+blitz and some air cover they can monster a land army in pretty short order
     
  4. JokerJay

    JokerJay Chieftain

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    am i missing something here???
    i actually think german is one of the civs that need a nerf?!

    when playing marathon, i get a hold of a 8-12 brute army when i could only have build 1-2 in turns???

    and it just keeps going.

    totally overpowered

    i conquert a huge map without ever producing a unit?? incl. all other civs and all city states, and only medievel age.



    totally overpowered early game
     
  5. Samuil

    Samuil Warlord

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    Ok, so the physicists were there in the last century or two (I`d rather give them free Physics tech than 40% great scientists rates)...
    How about prior to that? Ancient Mediterranean cultures, middle east cultures, eastern cultures, native American cultures were much more scientific back in their time than Germany...
    Industrial bonus or discipline, on the other hand, I would grant to Germany in the blink of an eye

    And I agree completely with
    With such a good start, raising an army from start, brutes and then landknechts, you could easily steamrol a civ early on and not need a bonus later on
     
  6. Teagen

    Teagen Warlord

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    The attack twice in 1 turn thing would work if it was limited to the first 5 turns or so after declaring war...kinda working like a true "blitzkrieg"
     
  7. danieladler

    danieladler Warlord

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    In general i would prefer endgame UU´s for all civs since the earlier units are always becoming obsolete very fast, so you seldom have any use for them. But i do understand it would be a bit silly to come up with a modern UU for some of the more ancient civs:) In that case it would be better to focus on leader/civ abilities, or even unique buildings, instead.
     
  8. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Panzers need a buff, though I do think the reduced production costs for the Landknescht or however you spell it are sufficiently awesome. It's true the UA needs work...but I can name at least two occasions when I converted barbarian infantry. :D

    Maybe they should also give Germany a buff vs. barbarians in combat?
     
  9. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    So you just combine the great UA of Siam and Alex, then make them even stronger?? Um, no. Most civs have very situational bonuses, at best you typically only get to use 1 (or 2 if you're lucky) during the entire course of the game. I look at germany as a great AI civ and slightly weak human civ, it only needs minor adjustments if anything.
     
  10. fmlizard2

    fmlizard2 Prince

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    How about German Engineering:

    Free Great Engineer after discovering Construction, Great Engineers are generated at a double rate.

    Basically just Babylon, but with GE in place of GS.
     
  11. Ravellion

    Ravellion Prince

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    I quite like the elegance of the proposal, and I definitely like the engineering angle.

    I was thinking Workshops, Windmills and Factories produce 1 extra :c5production:
     
  12. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    Hi, first post in forever.

    I like a lot of the suggestions here. I've really wanted to see a more industrial-focused Germany for a long time, and while you sort of had that with Bismarck's Germany in Civ IV with industrious+assembly plant, the late appearance of the UB and really specific trait (just making wonders/forges(?) faster) made it seem more like lip service than an actual industrial powerhouse.

    Of course, since it seems like we'll always have Panzer as a German UU, representing period-appropriate German industrial dominance would risk clumping a lot of the benefits in the mid-late game, which is usually a terrible idea for balance reasons. So I think an ability that works just as well on turn 200 as turn 20 would be ideal. Which leads me to...

    The "Babylon but with GEs" idea is wonderful. Maybe a bit derivative, but nice flavor-wise. That has the benefit of not over-focusing on later (particularly WWII) Germany that many American representations of Germany tend to fall into, and would keep the benefits dispersed more-or-less evenly throughout the game, which was a high priority to the dev team. I really do like the extra hammer from production buildings idea too; don't really know which I like more.


    On the question of whether Germany is currently balanced or not, it really depends on the game you're playing. Of course you're going to have to war to get any use from the German specials (and that's the case with a number of civs). But on top of that, you have the problem of the UA being very dependent on game rules. Not just "barbs off" or "raging barbs," but map size, map type, your starting/target landmasses, game speed, number of civs, number of city-states, and most of all, difficulty. I started on Prince and quickly moved up to king (Pangaea, since ocean screwed with the AI back then even more than now) on epic speed, and found Furor Teutonicus to be pretty overwhelming. I could build a couple of warriors/spears, take a couple policies in Honor, and then concentrate my cities on infrastructure and expansion (this is key) while I steamrolled everyone I could find with converted barbs. Being able to build up a competitive army with such minimal hammer investment made things pitifully easy. Even given how easy warfare was back then (and still is, largely), FT made a huge difference.

    Then I moved up to Emperor and Immortal, started playing normal speed, and started doing less land-heavy maps from time to time. Suddenly, I could hardly ever convert more than one or two barbs, because the AI was doing so much spawn busting and barb hunting that there were none left over for me to convert. And having only 2-3 50/50 coin flips, it wasn't unlikely that I'd get nothing and waste time with the units I'd built that could be exploring or fighting someone else. That, to me, is the real problem with Furor Teutonicus. I love the flavor, and when it works, it's amazing, but playing to that strength really limits your game options.

    Which, of course, just makes me want an industry-based Germany even more.


    As an aside (because this post needs more words), I wouldn't be opposed to a culture-based bonus that kicked in around Renaissance. Germany was one of the Western world's greatest centers of art for a good long while. I mean, make a mental list of the preeminent pre-Romantic classical composers you can think of and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps an ability that gave each culture-producing building/wonder in each city a small (5-10%) culture multiplier so you could really take off once you reached museums or if you invested in some wonders. That would make it era-appropriate and keep it from being too much like the other culture-based UAs. Particularly, it would keep it from butting up against Ancien Régime's early but limited and linear culture bonus.
     
  13. Beef Hammer

    Beef Hammer Warlord

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    Yea in my last emperor game Germany had a HUGE army much faster than anyone else and went on a bullying rampage. It's not nearly as weak as many people think, should try playing with em on a standard or larger map, massive army.
     
  14. Randall Turner

    Randall Turner King

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    I'm not sure how appropriate it is to emphasize German industrial capability, Lyoncet. Historically, other civilizations did better, particularly Industrial Revolution era Britain and then the United States and the Soviet Union. German industry basically failed them in the mid-20th Century compared to US and Soviet output (particularly the US, which out-produced the rest of the world combined.)

    In a nutshell, giving the Germans an advantage that results in "mass" doesn't smell right. The German accomplishments in this area tended to be technical innovation (in certain areas).

    As you mention vis a vis American viewpoint, it is a bit of a stereotype to characterize the Germans as unrelentingly warlike, but I'm not sure it's a totally invalid stereotype. I'd feel better if their in-game bonuses were somehow combat related. I'm thinking along the lines of some sort of discipline related trait.
     
  15. Teagen

    Teagen Warlord

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    For one thing, the US "never" out produced the rest of the world "combined" That would be quite a feet considering at it's height the usa made up ~31% of industrial production.

    Another thing, the USSR "never" out produced Germany either, even after ww2 as the soviet industrial base was largely just as destroyed as the German one and west Germany was much quicker to recover. The only reason the Soviets got all the cold war attention was; they developed a nuclear arsenal, they were not capitalist, and had diplomatic ties with China.

    http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch7en/conc7en/img/worldgdp_historical.png
     
  16. Randall Turner

    Randall Turner King

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    I'm not sure how true either of your points are.

    The litmus for heavy industry is steel production. The USA produced 50% of the world's steel at the start of World War II, prior to industry war mobilization. And of course wartime production was simply staggering.

    Likewise, the Soviet Union outproduced Germany in key war sectors not by percentages, but by factors, ie, x2, x3. Airplane manufacturing, tank production, straight up divisions fielded - they swamped the Third Reich.

    In view of these factors, how can you justify an ingame industrial bump for Germany when neither these nor Great Britain (the world's industrial leader until 1900, when it was outstripped by the USA) get one?

    Again, it seems an engineering quality (vs. mass) attribute would be more appropriate.

    Edit: well, maybe switch "aircraft" for "artillery", the Third Reich did pretty well in single-engine aircraft production.
     
  17. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    In my opinion, it's the innovation and efficiency that's noteworthy, so I agree on the GE being more appropriate than the straight bonuses now that you mention it. Still, you need to consider the youth of Germany as a nation and the fact that it had only half of the population of the USA and roughly a third of the USSR's in 1940, plus the natural resources of Germany as opposed to the nations you mentioned (my mid-century history is really foggy, but I seem to remember Russia, England, and the USA having enormous reserves of coal and iron compared to pretty much the entire world, let alone Germany). I may be hideously misremembering/misrepresenting that, but the Civ forums are nothing if not a great place to be dispelled of your illusions. :lol:
     
  18. Uniform Sierra

    Uniform Sierra Warlord

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    The Reich needs a lot of changes!

    Virst, ve need der Fuhrer as Herr Commandant, nicht that little whatever-his-name-is. Und den we need a better unique ability, "Der Final Solution" where you can raze enemy cities faster and conquor der inferior race barbarians quicker (+25% combat against barbs)!

    Heil Civilization V !!!

    On a side note, the U.S. Ford plant had 1 B24 rolling off the production line every 58 minutes. No other country has done things like this, not to mention the Manhattan Project, so der Fuhrer certainly doesn't deserve the production bonus. If anything, Germany should have a 25% increase in great artists.
     
  19. NicTeos

    NicTeos Warlord

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    I strongly disagree. Take the graph posted by Taegen or even measure it by the the size of the railroad network, where Germany had the biggest in 1885.

    While UK,France began with industrialization in 1800-1850, germany and USA catched up and left them behind.
    And since them these both do very well, better than UK/france. In the meanwhile Japan and China joined the club.

    Germany's strength indeed is the focus towards technical innovation and not for being the best sellers. And also to produce and even increased production in ww2, when many factories were bombed.

    And some graphs of industrial power today ( translated into german, because english version don't have that much graphs ) http://translate.google.at/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWelthandel%2FTabellen_und_Grafiken
     
  20. duhu

    duhu Chieftain

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    I see the Germans as being a slightly better fit for a tech/military UA rather than a production/cultural UA. The thing with Germany though is that they are a nice fit with just nearly anything you want to do with them, like the Americans.
     

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