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Germany: obsoleted at discovery of Zulu

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by MantaRevan, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    So I have to ask, what good reason, now that the Zulu are in the game, does someone have to play as Germany, who is now basically inferior in every way?
    They both get the reduced land unit maintenance for UAs, the difference being that Zulu units get promoted easier and the Germans can sometimes get free barbarians from camps, which is hardly a selling point. Even more, the Zulu pay 50% less maintenance, while the Germans pay only 25%. Is the chance of having barbarians join you really worth and extra -25% cost for land units, and faster promotions? This is just a bunch of extra brutes and spearmen, not exactly useful.
    They both have pikeman UUs, except the Landsknecht is just a pikeman that you can build quicker. That's it. No bonuses, no advantages, nothing. Quality over quantity is key in Civ V compared to the other civ games because of UPT. Only so many units can attack a city at a time, so it's generally better to have fewer units with better promotions(ZULU), rather than hordes of bad ones. In comparison, the Zulu Impi actually has something going for it, with the ability to preform spear throws.
    The German Panzer isn't necessarily bad per say, but it comes it at a point where the game should already be resolved, especially since conquest is all that either of these civs can really do, and that should end a game before Bismark even gets to use Panzers.
    Compare that to the amazement that is the Inkanda and Germany is just the wrong civ to pick. With a great improvement on an already key building that is necessary for the Zulu path to victory, the Inkanda leaves the Germans in the dust.
    As far as I can tell, the Germans are a lower tier civ in BNW that no one should really opt for over the far superior Zulu.
     
  2. I_qua_I

    I_qua_I Prince

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    First, just wanted to say I loved the clever thread title. Nice one. :goodjob:

    Second, I think there are still some key differences between Germany and the Zulu. In a vacuum they might not seem all that different but when you take into consideration some of the game elements you notice some cool unique strategies/synergies.The first thing that came to mind was that Germany is in a MUCH better position to benefit from the Terracotta Army wonder. You usually get a mix of barbs from the camps you take over so bee-lining this wonder after having accrued a large military (for no hammers) is usually disaster for your neighbor. I also don't really think the quality vs quantity argument is that fair (or accurate). Germany can pump out units like nobody's business and swarm the battlefield. Shaka can make due with a VERY elite core army. Both can get the job done, just in different ways. They both allow for a different play experience in order to optimize their abilities. That doesn't mean they couldn't be tweaked to allow for greater diversity though I don't think Shaka is simply Bismark's superior either.
     
  3. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Zulu only get the 50% on melee units where as Germany gets -25% on ranged and artillery as well.

    People gloss over Barb conversion without realizing how much gold they are getting for free. Each converted barb is the equivalent of 200+ gold if you were to purchase the unit yourself. The last game I played as Germany I managed to snag 7 free units.

    Landsknecht is indeed average at best, but I've found it has decent synergy with Honor. For about the price of a regular archer you can fill the map with pikes. When they've served their purpose you can leave them as garrisons instead of upgrading to lancers. If you are having problems with quantity vs. quality, try fighting on multiple fronts.

    Panzer discussion isn't really relevant if your only point is your games end before you get to them. You can compare Germany to any other Civ in the game and come to the same conclusion. In other words, your issue is with it being a late-game unit and nothing to do with the Zulu at all.

    There are already two huge threads on Germany, don't really need to keep making more...
     
  4. mistermoo33

    mistermoo33 Chieftain

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    They're not obsolete. -25% cost for land units if much more versatile than shaka's melee-only bonus. Shaka doesn't even get discounts in the late game because melee units don't exist.

    Germany is much better served by focusing on economy/tech/infrastructure for late-game conquest, and he has the freedom to do this because his UA will make armies for him simply by seeking out barb camps. Shaka needs to go to war early to take advantage of his UA.

    See Germany also gets -25% on gunpowder units where Shaka doesn't. Shaka's UA is almost useless about halfway into the game.

    There's an argument to be made for Germany being buffed (those UUs suck) but this is certainly not it.
     
  5. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    The developers acknowledged that Germany and Japan were in need of reworking their UAs. I hope they can do that by the time of the fall patch. In any case, they are aware of the issues at least, and probably were prior, when many fans mentioned that their UAs needed reworking. :)
     
  6. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

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    The Zulu are about the early game while Germany has 3 point points. You early rush because if the UA, then build up for the pikeman rush in the medieval era, then build up for the late-game offensive with your tanks. On the Polycast today they mentioned Japan and Germany as two teams they may adjust this fall though.
     
  7. MadMage86

    MadMage86 Warlord

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    I'll be honest. I've always thought Germany's uniques sucked. Barbarians from barbarian camps? Yeah, not a big deal. Less unit maintenance isn't really a selling point, either - it's not that powerful at any given point regardless. The Zulu ones are interesting because it lets you keep a cheap professional army, but I stopped playing straight conquest ages ago.

    Germany's current UA focuses on pre-medieval German history, which is a mistake in my opinion. They should really be focused more towards post-Industrial Germany and have a bonus that helps them generate more Great Engineers and a unique Factory, perhaps.

    Panzers are nice and obvious, but I really question the merit of giving any Civ a unique unit that is available in the modern era - in previous Civ games continued expansion at this point was feasible, but in Civ V the lines tend to be drawn unless you're pushing a conquest victory.
     
  8. mistermoo33

    mistermoo33 Chieftain

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    Honestly I think Germany, Japan and Denmark are weak civs with situational UAs, but the UAs themselves fine. The real problem is their bad UUs. If Japan had a culturally-focused UB instead of the Zero, for instance, they'd be in a good place. Late game UUs almost always feel inconsequential. Sometimes it feels like the only reasons they're in the game are for all 5 people in the world that play Civ 5 regularly on non-Ancient Era starts and for historical accuracy.
     
  9. Zet

    Zet Warlord

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    Germany is bad and uninteresting. Landsknechts are weak compared to other medieval UU's (Chu-Ko-Nu, Longbowman, Samurai, Impi) and upgrade into crappy Lancers. Panzers are good but come too late. -25% unit maintenance is OK but boring and weak by itself. Barb capture is only OK on low difficulty settings.


    At least Japan's UA is good... it's just the Zero that's bad.
     
  10. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    I'm glad to hear this. I'm always felt that Japan and Germany are 2nd rate civs in game, so it's nice to hear that the devs are going to revamp them.

    I would suggest replacing the zero with some sort of shrine replacement(Hoden maybe?) to give Japan the ability to do something other than war. Maybe they could turn Landksnects into a kind of mercenary unique to a policy tree in the way that they did with the f-legion.

    A good ability might be that Germany could get extra science and production from engineer specialists or something. IDK. Anyone else?
     
  11. Raptor Llama

    Raptor Llama Chieftain

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    I'm pretty sure melee units are defined as units that attack directly versus ranged, so the Zulu discount should apply to gunpowder units I believe. I could be wrong.

    Anyway, the Zulu needs at least 50% melee units (if my math is right) to break even with Germany. Germany can support a much more diverse army. Germany also got a very powerful indirect buff; Barbarians now spawn more frequently from what I've heard, and while I can't confirm that, I can confirm they spawn units that require strategic resources. Now I'm not sure what happens when Germany captures a strategic resource requiring unit, like if they get the penalty if they don't have the resource or not, but now they can amass a much more powerful and diverse army than before. They also get exclusive access to the hand axe. Of course, now other civs with the right reformation belief can also get the hand axe and other barbarian units, but missionaries are quite a bit harder to come by, come later in the game, and require protection (and does anyone know if reformation beliefs apply to just the founder or also to the follower? If the former, then only 1 civ would have the ability anyway.)

    Anyway, I think Germany is in theory still a viable option. I haven't had the opportunity to try them yet though, so I can't say for certain. I don't think you can write off panzers as too late though, as games generally go longer in brave new world, and with Lightning war Panzers could really help a final late game domination push. Of course, I always play Marathon, where they'd be more effective, it might not be as good on lower speeds. And you would need to be on par with others in terms of tech to get their full benefits.
     
  12. Viregel

    Viregel , The Rt. Hon.

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    I don't think that Germany's nessicarrily bad, but just not an amazing civilization. When you think about it, the new expansion made them better than before. With the removal of gold on river tiles, Germany can field a larger military than The Zulu at the start of the game, as ranged units are generally preferred. The ability to convert Barbarians isn't amazing, and is obsoleted later by the Heathen Conversion belief, but it does tie in with the discount. That said, I wouldn't mind a different UA, as it is a bit bland and boring, and makes Germany far too focused on warmongering.
     
  13. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    Yeah Zulu UA is for melee only. And 90% of our army's units are ranged :)
     
  14. sffrrrom

    sffrrrom Chieftain

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    Well, I just conquered my entire continent with the Zulu on Emperor using primarily Swordsmen. Triple Buffalo promotion plus Statue of Zeus plus Honor plus Great General = dead AI.
     
  15. SilverDash

    SilverDash Chieftain

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    Melee like swordsmen won't work on deity (perhaps immortal) because their cities are way too strong for melee. But ranged is still viable. So on Deity I'd say that Germany would be better where on Emperor Zulu might be better.

    But if you play with raging barbarians and leave a few empty places within your territory (without visibility) then you will have barbarian camps spawn there all the time. Especially lategame when they do not have many places to spawn anymore.
     
  16. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    I want the see the whole barbarian thing get dropped; always hated it.

    Ideas for future buffs/a new unique ability:

    -UUs: Landsknecht are maintenance free, Panzers get their +1 movement via promotion now and Furor Teutonicus (be gone you barbarian crap).

    -The nation of Poets, Philosophers and Engineers
    Great people generation is increased by 15% (except Artists) until you reach the Industrial Era. German Great Engineers can build two Manufactories. Get a free Great Engineer at Industrialization.

    (note: You can't build 1 manufactory and then use him to speedbuild a wonder - it's either this or that (similar to a great prophet and spreading religion))
     
  17. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Emperor

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    and there we go from UP to OP... :p
     
  18. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Obsessor

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    Please tell me this is true.

    Where is this mentioned?

    A bit more on topic with the thread, I think that Germany needs a reworked UA, and I think the Landsknecht would be much more attractive with just the following additions:

    Earn promotions 50% faster (retains on upgrade) and upgrades to the Rifleman (hey, if the Zulu can do this with the Impi, Germany sure as hell can). As for the decreased cost, I'd say retain it, but maybe bump up the cost a bit to reflect the increased usefulness of the unit.

    Panzer isn't great, but I think it's fine as it is. Compared to another late game unit, the Zero, it is perfectly acceptable.
     
  19. gaiko

    gaiko Warlord

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    The main advantage of Zulu over Germany has not been mentioned: Impi, a pike unit, upgrade on the infantry line starting with rifles (meaning they skip and don't directly upgrade to muskets), rather than on the lancer-antitank line. Impi also keep some (but not all) of their special promotions upon upgrade.
     
  20. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Yea could you show us where a developer mentioned that Japan, Germany, and Denmark getting reworked for the better? It would be great if they were - would like to see it personally myself :)
     

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