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Germany: obsoleted at discovery of Zulu

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by MantaRevan, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    I believe Denmark wasn't mentioned, but anyways, I don't find Denmark nearly as weak as others say. They are great for overseas invasions.
     
  2. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    The developers talked about Germany and Japan in the Polycast that was going live at 12 EST yesterday. It will be up in a week or so, so you can listen to it then. Japan might finally be getting a cultural bonus, YES. :)
     
  3. seasnake

    seasnake Conquistador

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    denmark's been fine since gk, there melee heal when they pillage and can attack on their same turn, and they can embark and immediately attack. deadly city takers.
     
  4. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    I do like the mechanic of recruiting barbarians? And I think it suits well for Germany early-game, allowing for mass rushes of units for early-game conquest even if those units aren't particularly good, while you can continue to produce buildings in the capital. It works, I have tried it, though I ended up mired in unhappiness due to poor planning. But then at some point it definitely wears off, and it's not really all that super-strong when other civs for early conquest get far more effective bonuses.

    I've suggested this elsewhere, but I feel like Landsknechts should be the universal Pikeman upgrade, and Lancers should be part of the regular mounted unit line, the Renaissance upgrade for the Knight. As Germany, the fact of the matter is that your best strategy is not to build an army, but to take it from encampents. Using that, however, means that the half production cost of Landsknechts is meaningless since you are far more likely to upgrade them from all those Spearmen you swiped. So I think that Germany's UA should throw in that Engineer Specialists provide twice as many Great Engineer points, and they should get a unique Workshop or Factory with twice as many Specialist slots and a huge boost to production. If they applied the half-cost bonus of a Landsknecht to a Factory, then you'd have some real powerful late-game bonuses, and punching out super-fast Panzers would be viable. I still do think they should also get defensive terrain bonuses to get that strategic edge.

    Also, as for Japan, a unique Shrine would be very pleasant and fitting, and adding on a cultural/scientific bonus atop Bushido would make them very cool. As for the Zero, I think it should be similar to the Foreign Legion, where you get a bunch of them in your cities from adopting some Autocracy tenet. For some reason I remember hearing about a proposed tenet that referenced kamikaze strikes, but I imagine it was removed cause, y'know. Well, getting Zeros from that same kind of tenet would certainly fit.
     
  5. Dtekkar

    Dtekkar Warlord

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    Caught me with the title, which I enjoyed quite a bit:)

    I agree, there is a bit of power creep going on in this game. A cheap way to ensure people buy their DLC/expansions with new civilizations is to impress people with powerful UA/UUs, in case the historical flavor or the type of gameplay advantages aren't appealing to people. Everyone likes to win. But then it breaks the game. Because old civs like bismarck end up marginalized, which then means the old civs need a rework at the higher power level to level the playing field, which may then disrupt other systems within the game, and in many games these fixes come late or never. Just one more reason passion-based unmonetized DLC is better, sorry, but I'll get off my soapbox.

    As for germany, I agree with you about the power level being too low. However, I like their Panzer, the UA is alright though a bit weak and bland, and I dislike the Landsneckt UU. Strangely enough the best thing the UA is does is leads to favorable peace deals, since your standing army can be so much larger & the AI calculates peace deals by military size differential. One of the most annoying things in this game is winning a war and being in shambles economically, preventing further progression, which this UA addresses. But I feel the UA should directly impact the war itself.

    Beyond the overpowered new civs, they've been hurting since G&K changed the tech tree. The pike to lancer to anti-tank gun path marginalizes your spam unit, as lancers are relatively weak and require horses, which you may not have. The anti-tank gun comes much later, leaving you with lancers for a long time after they're of dubious quality, and the anti-tank guns themselves may be the worst unit in game, which leaves you with the worst thing you can have in this game, a large useless military. With the high accessibility of Flight being on their way to Plastics, a key science tech for any warmonger, and the need to double back for railroads and what not generally lessens the initiative you would have with the Panzer, which was their ace in the hole. Normally a tank could blitzkrieg forward and munch on back-line artillery forcing their infantry back to defend, which allows you to advance. But with Flight centralized and accessable air forces are already proliferated so a few WW1 bomber corp can take care of the disruption. Futhermore, while using the Panzers, you have to either suicide all your Landsneckt turned anti-tank guns, which die rapidly in modern combat to artillery, air power, and standard infantry, or sit on all the lancers while waiting for helicopters, at which point your timing window for a Panzer-based attack has likely closed. Fix the anti-tank gun, and you fix Germany, at least somewhat.

    I have not tried the Lightning War autocracy upgrade with Germany yet though, and that may help a lot, I'll have to give it a try. But again, that tenet is available to everyone. So yeah, agreed, Germany isn't doing so well:crazyeye:
     
  6. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    omgomg I hope this is true. Was this also from the podcast? Also, technical question, if a new patch gets released for stuff like that, do I have to play BNW to make use of it or will people without BNW get assess to the improvements?
     
  7. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    Yeah, this. Not only would this be a good partial fix for Germany, but the AT unit is in dire need of fixing anyway. Kill two birds with one stone.

    I don't know why people poopoo the lancer, though. With all the cav oriented civs in the game, they're very useful (Arabia, Mongolia, Huns, Byzantines, Poland, etc, etc; I could keep going!)

    I don't know what else they should do to improve Germany, but yeah it could use a little help.
     
  8. JokerJace

    JokerJace Prince

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    Just to clear some things up for the people that try to defend this terrible, weak german civ: gunpowder units ARE melee units. So this is no advantage for Germany over Zulu.

    And the zero is actually considered the WORST UU of the game. Coming late is not a problem per se. But the later a unique X comes, the better it has to be to compensate for it's smaller impact on the game. And the panzer just doesn't do justice to his position in the tech tree. Just as the zero.
     
  9. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Obsessor

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    Let me rephrase that: I think it's too much to hope that they will change every aspect of Germany. In light of that, I'd rather they address the UA first, the Landsknecht second (cheaper production, no matter how much cheaper, just isn't very 'unique'), and then the Panzer.

    Like I said, the Panzer isn't terrible. It moves faster and hits harder than a standard tank, though I do wish it also ignored ZOC (without having to delve into the Autocracy tenet).

    Whatever the case, I'm very pleased that Germany is getting some attention.
     
  10. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

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    Great to hear that Germany is getting a change. They are the most in need of a change, and I say that not just as Germanophile. Great to hear Japan is getting a buff as well. Hopefully they will take a look at America and the Ottomans now too.
     
  11. Adder

    Adder Chieftain

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    What's wrong with the ottomans then?
     
  12. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    They seem weaker to me on non-water maps, but prize ships on all naval units is nothing to scoff at. They just seem kinda bad, just not in desperate need of revival like Germany or Japan.
     
  13. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

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    For me, the Ottomans are more an issue of "theming", with their UA not really being appropriate for their civ, sort of like Germany. I don't really associate the Ottomans with being a huge maritime power. I do grant that they are not nearly as underpowered from a gameplay perspective as Germany, America, and Japan at least.

    Sorry to derail the conversation at hand, did anyone hear exactly what they said on this podcast?
     
  14. HaloCapella

    HaloCapella Chieftain

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    They should just give Germany a chance for bonus settlers from defeating barbarian camps instead. talk about OP.

    and then after we can give a fix to those Landsknecht.
     
  15. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    False. Honour policy production bonus to melee units for example doesn't apply to gunpowder units (except Terico which is considered a melee unit).


    Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  16. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    False.

    Everything that doesn't shoot but melee attack is considered melee in every aspect of the game. Gunpowder units are all melee.
     
  17. Magstine

    Magstine Chieftain

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    The game has both melee and Melee units. Honor production does no apply to all melee units, only Melee units, though the 15% bonus for being adjacent to another unit applies to all melee units.

    I haven't tried the Zulu yet and since it is the first word in their description I can't tell if it includes gunpowder/mounted/armor/whatever units, but I assume it doesn't.
     
  18. Tursas

    Tursas Chieftain

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    Starting a game in the Information Era, Shaka pays 5 in unit maintenance (5 Marines, 2 Settlers and 3 Workers), while Bismarck only pays 4, so that does not seem to be the case.
     
  19. mistermoo33

    mistermoo33 Chieftain

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    Incorrect. Here's a list:

    http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Melee_units_(Civ5)

    Gunpowder units are almost functionally "Melee units" but they are not improved by the relevant parts of Denmarks and Zulu's UA, or the tier 1 honor policies.

    Similarly, bonuses that apply to mounted units do not apply to armored units despite them being along the same upgrade path.
     
  20. ahawk

    ahawk King

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    Germany is more about late-game war, Zulu more about early-game war.

    As Germany, building the Kremlin (via going Order rather than Autocracy) gives you an amazing ability to field powerful, fast armor that you are still building quicker than usual despite foregoing Autocracy. Since you already have lower unit maintenance anyways, you can use whatever tenets of Order will help the most, and go with that. Landsknetchts are more about fielding a large defensive army quickly because of sudden attack, or bee-lining Civil Service (a good idea in many cases even without a UU there) to make a sudden, large push on one or two AI cities or CSes.

    Zulu are more the opposite: get off to a fast-paced, early conquering spree up front, then settle down later and consolidate your gains after the UA and UB no longer provide significant benefits.

    The main issue I have with the Zulu, and the one way they do tend to have a significant advantage over Germany is that their Impi upgrade to Riflemen! Pikes upgrading to Rifles is in itself a great advantage, made all the more for the Zulu because the Impi will have tons of promos by the time it can be upgraded. If Impi upgraded normally, to Lancers, I'd say the Zulu are just slightly ahead of Germany because Germany can mount a late-game run utilizing Clausewitz's Legacy and a cheap army, or the Kremlin and easy-to-build Panzers and do just as well. But the fact of the matter stands, that, well, Impi become Rifles!
     

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