Germany: obsoleted at discovery of Zulu

[HaloCapella]

I've been playing as Germany against a close border Immortal Zulu AI for a while and an early citadel can really fend of an attacking Zulu well. And fought enough to have a citadel adjacent to all three cities. I'll just have to see if i can go to Panzers.

 

[EYGuy]

I think Germany can use a makeover, but it's not quite that the Zulu are strictly better in every capacity.

 

[Calouste]

Please tell me this is true.

Where is this mentioned?

A bit more on topic with the thread, I think that Germany needs a reworked UA, and I think the Landsknecht would be much more attractive with just the following additions:

Earn promotions 50% faster (retains on upgrade) and upgrades to the Rifleman (hey, if the Zulu can do this with the Impi, Germany sure as hell can). As for the decreased cost, I'd say retain it, but maybe bump up the cost a bit to reflect the increased usefulness of the unit.

Panzer isn't great, but I think it's fine as it is. Compared to another late game unit, the Zero, it is perfectly acceptable.

Germany deserves rework because it was originally designed with a spammable UU that upgraded into to main Infantry line. Later redesign pulled the rug out from under that and the Landsknecht started upgrading into the more marginal anti-mounted/armor line.

 

[JokerJace]

delete

 

[mabalogna]

There are 2 types of combat in the game - Melee & Range - all units fall within one or the other

Destroyers are technically 'melee' units, but do not benefit from 'melee promotions' or production bonus' for Melee units. This logic applies with land units as well.
Ancient -> Classical -> Medieval melee units are "Melee" units.
Renaissance -> Industrial -> Modern -> Atomic -> Future are "Gunpowder" units.

The Zulu benefit gives 50% reduction on maintenance for Melee units (Ancient -> Medieval)
The Germans get 25% reduction on ALL land units (Melee, Gunpowder, Cavalry, Range, Armor, AT, AA, Helicopter)

Build an Ikanda, which provides a unique bonus to Melee units, then produce a Musket and you'll notice that the promotion is not awarded to you - this is because that unit is considered Gunpowder and will not receive benefits intended for Melee.

 

[elijahfire]

Germany is bad and uninteresting. Landsknechts are weak compared to other medieval UU's (Chu-Ko-Nu, Longbowman, Samurai, Impi) and upgrade into crappy Lancers. Panzers are good but come too late. -25% unit maintenance is OK but boring and weak by itself. Barb capture is only OK on low difficulty settings.


At least Japan's UA is good... it's just the Zero that's bad.

^ this

 

[Babri]

False.

Everything that doesn't shoot but melee attack is considered melee in every aspect of the game. Gunpowder units are all melee.

I would advise you to do some homework before calling someone wrong. The other poster summed it quite nicely for me :-

Incorrect. Here's a list:

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Melee_units_(Civ5)

Gunpowder units are almost functionally "Melee units" but they are not improved by the relevant parts of Denmarks and Zulu's UA, or the tier 1 honor policies.

Similarly, bonuses that apply to mounted units do not apply to armored units despite them being along the same upgrade path.

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[Rhaegar7]

They're not obsolete. -25% cost for land units if much more versatile than shaka's melee-only bonus. Shaka doesn't even get discounts in the late game because melee units don't exist.

Germany is much better served by focusing on economy/tech/infrastructure for late-game conquest, and he has the freedom to do this because his UA will make armies for him simply by seeking out barb camps. Shaka needs to go to war early to take advantage of his UA.



See Germany also gets -25% on gunpowder units where Shaka doesn't. Shaka's UA is almost useless about halfway into the game.

There's an argument to be made for Germany being buffed (those UUs suck) but this is certainly not it.

Quite a lot of melee warfare late game actually. Don't make the mistake of thinking that once you get gunpowder and the unit is not melee. They all are.

If you get hit back.. it's melee.

 

[Thuellai]

Quite a lot of melee warfare late game actually. Don't make the mistake of thinking that once you get gunpowder and the unit is not melee. They all are.

If you get hit back.. it's melee.

Melee Unit Class, not 'melee' as in 'engages in 1-tile combat'

From musketmen on, those units are Gunpowder class and are only given the bonuses which affect Gunpowder units, just as there is a switch-over from Mounted unit class to Armored unit class.

 

[Dtekkar]

The trouble I have with the german pike is that it's a total non-bo combo with the barbarian conversion: If your campaigns against the barbarian hordes went well, you have more low quality units than you can pay the maintenance for, nevermind upgrade. The option of spamming more generic melee troops as civil service arrives soon after is unsavory.

 

[Wuddel]

I can't make out the part in the Polycast where they talk about. (min please).

Germany's UA and the Landsknecht feel incredibly bland. In BNW there are handaxes but they are chariot archer replacements :/ I really do not like UU which "superpower" is that they are cheaper. Just boring.

And the Zeros are not even shown on the map most of the time ...

 

[JokerJace]

I can't make out the part in the Polycast where they talk about. (min please).

Germany's UA and the Landsknecht feel incredibly bland. In BNW there are handaxes but they are chariot archer replacements :/ I really do not like UU which "superpower" is that they are cheaper. Just boring.

And the Zeros are not even shown on the map most of the time ...

yeap, can anyone tell me the exact wording of them acknowledging that Germany/Japan need some reworking?

 

[Securion]

yeap, can anyone tell me the exact wording of them acknowledging that Germany/Japan need some reworking?

This. Bump.

 

[Dtekkar]

Played another game of BNW Germany, this time with autocracy, at immortal level, mostly to try out lightning war with panzers. Blitzkrieg is pretty darn good with Panzers, as they have the bonus move to really help you get at the squishy stuff, to the point where modern armor wasn't always a worthwhile upgrade. I was surprised to have won the war I fought with Blitzkrieg, it really is an immensely powerful ideology, without ZOC tanks rival aircraft in power level, and complement them well, able to clear away AAA, making the air strikes exceedingly deadly.

I'm happy that autocracy has some strong ideologies, because order has so many great policies, and freedom certainly has some cultural and diplomatic silver bullets. The last couple games I played with autocracy it wasn't much to write home about, but in both there were strong culture players trendsetting and I limped into the autocracy trend too late for the fast tech steal to matter.

 

[Yzman]

I am amazed at how many people in this topic have no idea that melee units ( hand to hand combat units early in the tech tree prior to gunpowders mostly) are not the same as Melee units, which are the opposite of ranged units.

The Zulu only apply to melee units, aka those pregunpowder ones. It isn't any unit that isn't ranged.

I guess the devs did make it a bit confusing by using the same term for both.

 

[Babri]

I am amazed at how many people in this topic have no idea that melee units ( hand to hand combat units early in the tech tree prior to gunpowders mostly) are not the same as Melee units, which are the opposite of ranged units.

The Zulu only apply to melee units, aka those pregunpowder ones. It isn't any unit that isn't ranged.

I guess the devs did make it a bit confusing by using the same term for both.

crazyeyes:

Anyway even I came to know about this quite recently despite of playing ciV since its release.

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[Magma_Dragoon]

Using a small, highly promoted military is not a viable strategy for an offensive war.

 

[superliminal]

Using a small, highly promoted military is not a viable strategy for an offensive war.

With Zulu's UA, however, you can have a large, highly promoted military. With full military buildings, you can get three promotions out of the gate, one battle later getting March-Heal or Blitz.

Their unique promotions from their UB are also very strong.

 

[Merciorum]

AHEM. Back to the matter at hand, where in the polycast do they mention Japan+Germany changes?

 

[monkspider]

They start talking about this at about the 16 minute mark here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=actIvzQsbHI

The developers are fielded a question about Germany being an older, weaker cousin of the Zulu. The developers say there are two civs they are not happy with and want to address before any others, 1. Germany and 2. Japan. They say they want to look at how the new barbarians help Germany when making changes but they do say there is a lot of overlap with the Zulu. For Japan they say there is a lot of warmonger civs in the game now and there are a lot of new gameplay mechanics that have been introduced that could complement Japan. They don't like the Bushido ability because it is too passive and doesn't change the way that you play.They say they have thought interesting a mechanic that makes Japan more resistant to influence from other people's culture but that it would be more appropriate for an AI ability and wouldn't be that fun for the player. They concluded by saying they are going to keep brainstorming.